A Therapist Examines Therapy

A Therapist Examines Therapy

Episode 57

Helen Sneed: Welcome welcome to our award winning podcast Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Snead.

Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.

Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome chronic severe mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We provide practical skills, guest experts, and inspirational true stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.

Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals. But we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.

Helen Sneed: We live in recovery.

Valerie Milburn: So can you this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.

Helen Sneed: Welcome to episode 57 a therapist examines Therapy. Today we have the great opportunity to talk with a brilliant therapist and consummate mental health professional. Her remarkable career has covered so many aspects of mental illness that we had a difficult time choosing among the numerous topics on which she is an authority. Now today, one of the most significant will be an examination of how to build and assess therapeutic relationships. I am keenly interested in this subject. The other two critical areas for our discussion are attachment issues and safe and effective use of ketamine as a treatment method. So without further ado, Valerie, will you introduce our guest please?

Valerie Milburn: I will. I'm honored to introduce Samantha Pothoff. Samantha is a licensed marriage and family counselor and co founder of Therapy Collective of California. Samantha specializes in trauma, anxiety, depression, attachment issues and grief. What makes her approach unique is her integration of cutting edge neuroscience with Evidence informed psychotherapy, including innovative treatments like ketamine assisted psychotherapy. Samantha refuses to let diagnostic labels define or limit a client's potential for growth, creating collaborative partnerships where profound healing and recovery become possible. Samantha's work represents breakthrough developments in the psychiatric field for understanding and treating mental health disorders, particularly her use of ketamine assisted therapy for treatment resistant depression, PTSD and anxiety, thus offering new hope for individuals who haven't found relief through traditional methods. Samantha is committed to creating safe spaces where clients feel seen and appropriately challenged. Samantha, welcome to the Mental Health Hope and Recovery podcast.

Samantha Pothoff: Yay. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate being here and being able to share with everyone sort of the importance of therapy and how helping find a great therapist can really create great healing.

Helen Sneed: Well, we know that you are a great, great person to consult on all of this and we are just excited to just to hear what you have to say. We know we're going to learn a lot today,

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Helen Sneed: so I'm just going to jump right in. So first off, were there specific experiences in your life that led you to choose a career in mental health?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't actually my first career, it's my second because so I went in studying neuroscience and I had a career in medicine. And I actually really recognized just the lack of understanding of mental health and the lack of training, even for doctors about mental health. And so it was an interest of mine that I was really wanted to address. And that's sort of how I became very integrated as a therapist with like using mind body approaches because I have a lot of that science background.

Helen Sneed: Well, that's awfully impressive. And you are so needed in the field. So here's how we're going to do it today. Given your extensive background, we're going to focus in on three areas of your expertise. Building empowering therapeutic relationships. Attachment issues and a breakthrough treatment Treatment. Breakthrough psychotherapy. Assisted ketamine treatment.

Valerie Milburn: So let's jump right in on the building empowering therapeutic relationships. What is the most important component in that area of building these therapeutic relationships?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah, so to be honest with you, I think safety and trust is such an important foundation. And, you know, a lot of us go in not really trusting people and especially a stranger right sitting in front of you. And so it's not always about that you're going to trust them right away, but it's someone that you feel you can learn to trust where there's some sort of authentic connection that you're feeling with the other, with the therapist, and you feel like they're showing up as like a real. And that's going to help it feel like a safe space. I think also collaboration is super important in therapy. I don't see the therapist as like the expert on someone else's life. You are the expert on your own life. So it's my job to help guide you and give you alternatives and sort of teach you new things and look at things from a different perspective. But it's a partnership, not a hierarchy. And I think that's super important. As much as I love being the expert, I think I'm an expert on helping people with certain strategies and certain lenses to look at things through. But people know about their own lives and it's my job to help sort of guide them. And so I think feeling seen and heard is really important. And empathy is really important in a therapist.

Valerie Milburn: Those are great things.

Helen Sneed: Yeah. So, okay. It's very daunting. And how can a person effectively seek and locate the right therapist? I mean, what do you do? What skills are involved?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah. So it's really helpful to do some research. There's a great website, Psychology Today, that's like a, just a research platform for therapists where you could select like, I want to use insurance or I want to address this issue or. And you can sort. It's a directory of therapists that's really helpful. You also want to look and see if people have specialized trainings or, you know, specialties that are focused on the area that you're looking for. And the most helpful thing you could possibly do is ask the therapist for a free consultation call. So a consultation call, almost every therapist I know will offer them. It's like a 10 to 15 minute call where you can get on the phone with the therapist and ask them a couple questions. And, you know, it's a really good opportunity to get to know how that therapist communicates, which can often be a good sort of window into how they'll practice As a therapist with you.

Helen Sneed: Can you give us an idea as to sort of what some of the questions might be? You want to be sure and ask?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah. So I think like you could always ask them like how, how do you approach X issues? So let's say I'm dealing with depression. It's like, what, what approaches do you take for dealing with depression and seeing if that resonates with you and if that's the type of approach that feels best like in your gut, you know, and with what you think would be helpful. And then I think it's like doing some research on their website and seeing if their vibe really matches for what you're looking for. Sometimes you can't always put words to, like, this question or that question. It's really just having

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Samantha Pothoff: a conversation and sort of seeing what feelings you get. Having a conversation with this person.

Helen Sneed: Okay, that, you know, that's really helpful because I. Again, you feel terrible, and it can really be something to go into such an intimate relationship. So, okay, then how can an individual determine a good therapeutic relationship or one that's not working? You're in it. And what can the person do if the therapy is not a fit?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah. I think I want to make one more point, though, about finding therapists, which is that it is totally okay to shop around with therapists. Like, I always tell people, like, call two or three of them. Like, why just give yourself a one. You know, compare. See how you felt talking to multiple therapists and compare. Sort of, oh, I really felt like that person heard me a little bit better maybe, than the other one. And it can sort of give you insight into, like, what kinds of therapists are out there, because everyone is so different. And so I think it would be helpful to talk to more than one when you're trying to choose it. Okay. And then to answer the question about how you can tell if it's a good relationship, it feels like you're growing. Like, you don't always recognize the growth as it's happening, but you look back and you say, wow, I totally would have responded differently in the past within that situation. And you're noticing your responses are changing, your thought process is changing, how you feel is changing and evolving. So I think it's really feeling. That sense of safety in the relationship is also a sign that it's working and that you feel like that's a consistent person that can be there with you. So not feeling like the therapist is distracted or, you know, feeling like the therapist is really listening and caring about what you're saying. So signs that it might not be a great fit, I think are also important to talk about, which is, like, if you don't feel understood, if you feel judged, if you feel unsafe, those are all reasons to start sort of finding a different therapist. Right. The one that doesn't give you those feelings, because it should feel like a safe space, because not every therapist will also be the right match. I think that's also important.

Valerie Milburn: Those are really wonderful ideas. And I know until we talked, until you and I talked a couple of weeks ago, I didn't realize that almost every therapist will offer you that free 15 to 20 minute, 10 to 15 minute consultation call. And that's just a really good tip that I know I wasn't aware of. So thanks for sharing that. Now let's move on to the attachment issue discussion because that's also something I didn't know much about and I have done a lot of research to learn about that. So let's talk about what are some of the examples of attachment issues? Well, first, the reason we really want to look at that is the issues that lie outside the attachment issues that lie outside the therapeutic relationship are brought into the therapeutic relationship. So we want to define them and then give some examples of them that can be supported with therapy. And we're going to count on you to do that.

Samantha Pothoff: Okay, wonderful. Yeah, I think that like attachment issues are brought into the therapeutic relationship. And so that makes it so helpful for the therapist who works with attachment to be able to help that person because those issues are brought up right, right in front of your face. And so the therapeutic space is really a microcosm for what happens in the outside world from an attachment perspective. And so how someone feels or treats or interacts with their therapists, for example, like, can say a lot about attach, their attachment and how they are in relationship.

Valerie Milburn: Well, I took the attachment quiz, as you suggested from Dr. Diane Poole Heller's website, and I'm going to tell you about my results and then have you kind of explained them and I can tell you what I learned about them as well. So the attachment types are secure and secure, avoidant, disorganized and ambivalent. I am 45% secure, 20% avoidant, 18% disorganized,

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Valerie Milburn: and 15% ambivalent. And what I learned most about.

Samantha Pothoff: I.

Valerie Milburn: Think the thing that resonated the most with me is that I learned that we are biologically wired to connect and thus biologically wired to heal. And the reason that was important is that being secure means that I have learned because I was wired to connect and thus wired to heal. I've learned to be secure because I know I wasn't until I got into recovery based on my childhood. But secure means that I can emotionally regulate, that I have self esteem and confidence, that I'm resilient. Those are two really three really important things. So can you talk about how all of these attachment issues make up the whole person, make up the way you relate, you know, your relationships, your interaction with the outside world and your interaction with the therapist based on me being secure, avoidant, disorganized, ambivalent. I mean, how does that affect all of these things?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah. So we can have different attachment styles with different types of people. So while you might be secure in general. Right. That's sort of what that says to me, is that the majority of you is securely attached in the world. You feel both. That you could be resilient, like all what you just mentioned. Right. Like, that is for sure the truth. However, there could be these other types of relationships, maybe more specific ones, that maybe in this type of dynamic you're more avoidant, or in this type of dynamic, you're more disorganized. And so sometimes it's helpful to figure out, like, how you present to the world, how you show up, and then also how you show up in certain relationship types. So, for example, like romantic relationships, you might have a different attachment style than like a friendships. So you. So sometimes I see people that are very anxiously attached, let's say, in romantic relationships, but they feel pretty secure with their friends or they feel, you know, more avoidant with friendships or things like that. So it can be applied sort of in different ways for different relationships, if that makes sense.

Valerie Milburn: It does. You know, what comes to mind for me is I'm very secure in my marriage. I've been married for 42 years to this amazing guy. We did a lot of work to get to where I am secure in this relationship. But I'm very avoidant with strangers. And I'm a sexual assault survivor. And for years I couldn't even get in an elevator if there was just one male in the elevator. But that is something I worked on in therapy. But first I had to become secure with my male psychiatrist. But I worked with him for 31 years, so obviously I got there. But that was something I worked on in therapy was how to be able to get into an elevator, you know, so that makes sense to me. And I still have relationships, you know, other than my spouse, that I am, you know, much more avoidant in or even disorganized, where I can, you know, have unstable reactions, you know, which is what, you know, disorganized. Disorganized means inconsistent and unpredictable behavior. And I can be volatile, particularly with certain family members, with my behavior. So that makes so much sense to me that we are different with different people.

Samantha Pothoff: That's right. And I think you mentioned something that's really important, which is that that played out with your psychiatrist, right. That like. And that just shows you how it's a microcosm. What happens in a therapeutic setting. Setting is also going to be representative of how you are outside of that setting. So for like in that example that you used, you know, you struggled being alone with a male and that played out being alone with a male psychiatrist. Right. Where you had to build that comfort and that trust. And so I think that's how powerful attachment healing can happen is through that therapeutic relationship that, that you learned, like, oh, men can be safe, or men, you know, in this situation, my psychiatrist can be safe. And so maybe other men can be safe, you know. And so it just sort of starts to shift your belief system by having these like corrective experiences with the therapist.

Helen Sneed: Yeah, well, something that fascinated me about this

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Helen Sneed: whole attachment issues is tell us more about how attach attachment issues are dealt with through the attachment lens.

Samantha Pothoff: Our attachment is built super early in life, so most people don't even know where their attachment sort of came from. We have to bring insight into that. And so when things are dealt through an attachment lens, we're often looking at, okay, what was your relationship like with your parents? Those are the earliest relational patterns. Those where they are built and develop out of right is your, your primary relations is with your parent initially. And so you have to understand the different patterns and create awareness to what you learned so that if you bring awareness to like why you are the way you are, it'll help you to make different decisions in the future because that's in your awareness now. Like, oh, I'm acting in this very anxiously attached way right now, for example. And so maybe that's not necessarily about this person. Maybe it's actually me reacting to that feeling of abandonment from childhood or something like that. Right. So creating the awareness of where your attachment system comes from is really helpful at helping you heal and understand yourself and your behaviors and your thoughts and all that kind of stuff.

Helen Sneed: What are some effective treatment methods for forming healthy attachments? I mean, it's, you know, it's, it can't be that easy to like snap your fingers and go, oh, yeah, I'm going to be fine now, you know, what skills do you teach people or do you use?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah, so there's a lot of different skills. And it obviously depends on what attachment style you are. Right. Like avoidant attachment skills are going to be different than like anxious attachment skills. And so it really depends on the person. But a really relational based therapy is really helpful. So therapists that really take a relational approach that is attachment based is really helpful because that's what I was saying about like the therapeutic relationship being so important and so healing in and of itself because you have these corrective experiences. I think that you can practice relational skills as well in therapy, like learning boundaries, learning better communication, learning to build trust. And then of course, I think it's really helpful to learn like different mindfulness skills and grounding skills to increase, like your tolerance for closeness and for relationships.

Valerie Milburn: Yeah, I just am thinking about the relationships I've built in therapy over the years, the ones that were healthy and how powerful they were. I remember my psychiatrist saying something one day that just made me realize what kind of healthy relationship we had built. And it was something so unexpected. I was talking about the growth I had had in some certain area. And he looked at me and he said, I'm your biggest cheerleader. And I was like, what? You know, and he was like, I'm your biggest cheerleader. As you grow, it's, you know, this is so exciting for both of us. And that was just a connection I did not expect, you know, showing that we were

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Valerie Milburn: a team. As I was growing, he was, you know, on my side and wanted to be there and watch me grow more. And it was just a really cool moment to see him as my cheerleader.

Samantha Pothoff: That's awesome. And I think that that's how great therapy should feel, right, Is like, this person is on your side, they're on your team, they're trying to help you you know, and like they want to be there and to hear, to heal and watch you heal. And I think that's, that's awesome to hear that you had that experience.

Valerie Milburn: Yeah.

Helen Sneed: Well, I think also that just proves the importance of the attachment in the, in the therapy because it, I can remember, you know, learning more and then it, that that leap of faith to take it out into the world, into other relationships. And yet you've got this core relationship that you can kind of go back to, you know, and learn how to seek out people that you can, should attach to, you know?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah, yeah. I think like it's really in changing your attachment style. It's difficult, it takes time, it takes practice, things like that. And oftentimes certain attachment styles like to play with each other, for example. So, you know, I often often see like a very anxious person with a very avoidant person. Right. That's a classic romantic dynamic where people that are really anxious find these people that are more avoidant. And so it's just really interesting to like, you know, get to know people through this attachment lens. And I think it's something that not everybody does. And so I think it's like a helpful thing when you're struggling with your relationships and you're not sure, like, why do I keep ending up in these types of dynamics, you know, so it can be helpful for that.

Valerie Milburn: Well, I'm going to put in the show notes Diane Poole Heller's website, because taking that attachment quiz, which is free on her website, was really helpful to me. And then I just researched the characteristics of the different attachment styles and it really taught me a lot about myself. And I will, like I said, I'll put that in the show notes so our listeners can pursue that for themselves. So I just learned a lot about attachment issues and I think it'd be a great time to talk about the breakthrough treatment that you practice, which is ketamine assisted psychotherapy. And you're well versed in this breakthrough treatment. I know ketamine assisted psychotherapy has been around for a while, but it is getting more mainstream. And first of all, let's talk about which disorders does ketamine assisted psychotherapy treat most effectively?

Samantha Pothoff: Right. So ketamine is really helpful for treatment resistant depression. That's like the NPTSD and trauma related disorders. That's like where most of the studying has taken place within some sort of depression. Trauma or ptsd. Anxiety is also. It's been really helpful for that as well. Most of the emerging research is coming out now about ocd, chronic pain Eating disorders. So there's other things that people are finding it can be really helpful for not just like treatment resistant depression, because I think that's what most people hear is like, okay, it's for that, but it actually could be for a lot of different things. It's, it's often for people that don't respond to traditional types of therapies. So I usually find people coming when they've tried talk therapy already and they just keep feeling stuck and they, they, they're not sure what else to try or do.

Valerie Milburn: That's really heartening that it's being tried now used on different types of disorders. I was not aware of this latest research with eating disorders and ocd. That's really helpful. I've seen personally how effective it's been with depression with two people in my life who have just had incredible success. And it's, it's been beautiful to watch this person who dealt with depression literally for 40 years and to watch this person just blossom and break through the chains of long term, long term depression.

Samantha Pothoff: So yeah, this is where I kind of nerd out with my neuroscience background because it literally changes your brain. So it's so fascinating to me, just the neuroplasticity element of it. So I'm not sure if everyone knows what that means, but it's our,

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Samantha Pothoff: it's our brain's ability to be, to adapt and to change. And I think that that gives so much hope to people that it's like all of our brains are capable of neuroplasticity. And so we're all able to, you know, heal and change and adapt, you know, depending on the circumstances and how you go about that, that's up to you. But like, I think there's a lot of different approaches and it's finding what is going to work best for you.

Valerie Milburn: Well, that's something Helen particularly mentions often. Neuroplasticity and the.

Helen Sneed: I was so, so cynical about it when it was I first told him, he say, 20 some odd years ago, they said, oh, you can grow new brain cells. And I went, come on, you know, and you guess what I did. And it's, it's made all the difference in the world.

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah.

Helen Sneed: And what I learned also that I think you know so well is that age has nothing to do with it. Any brain can adjust or change or whatever it needs to do at any time in life.

Samantha Pothoff: Yes, absolutely.

Valerie Milburn: And the new breakthroughs are just phenomenal. And what's happening with brain research and treatment that results from the new research is so promising and there's just more and more on the horizon and it's great. I know going back to the ketamine treatment, I know safety is a key factor. Can you talk about how you use ketamine in conjunction with psychotherapy? And then while you're doing that, can you also talk about the importance of integration in this treatment approach, please?

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah, of course. So ketamine by itself is not like a cure. Ketamine helps increase your brain's ability to be neuroplastic in those moments and helps open up sort of the rigid neural pathways that the integration is what happens after you take the ketamine. So that's done with a psychotherapist where you really, the therapy helps guide the meaning making of the ketamine experience. So that's how you really get sustained change. So without integration, the insights might actually fade. The therapy is what helps sort of sustain the change that ketamine opens up in your brain. And so what's really helpful is to see just like the new flexibility, the new beliefs, the new habits, the new ways of going about the world and yourself that can come out of it. It's amazing.

Valerie Milburn: That's the best explanation I think I've ever heard about how the psychotherapy and the actual ketamine work together.

Valerie Milburn: So thank you.

Samantha Pothoff: Yeah. Of course there's different ways to approach ketamine therapy. You could, you can do IV therapy, you could do it through lozenges. So there's different ways of ingesting the ketamine. But the most important thing is to have like someone who is a. Say it's a safe environment with trained providers. Like, you know, it's important to, to do it sort of in a way that's healing and not going to be sort of harmful to your mental health. So. Right.

Helen Sneed: Well, I want to tell you that one of the things I most appreciate about your comments today is how the, the, the thread of the term safety, because that was so important to me because I didn't even know what that meant. I was so messed up. And to learn safety through therapy and in group therapy with, with other trauma survivors is where I've literally first felt safe for the first time in my life. But I'm so glad that you have focused on that. So finally we have our, the always the same question, Samantha, which is for you. It's so important for us to hear this from you. Based on your vast body of experience. What gives you hope for people fighting mental illness today?

Samantha Pothoff: I think what gives me hope is my amazing clients over time that I'VE witnessed build resilience and transform. I think I've seen people of all ages, of all walks of life be able to have change. I think the neuroplasticity element of it and just how we can change our brains literally on a neuron level, I think it's so hopeful in that there are these new innovative treatments that are coming out as well. It's always changing and there's always new things we're learning about our brains and how they function. And so I think science also keeps

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Samantha Pothoff: me really hopeful too, that we're always learning new things.

Helen Sneed: Well, I'm glad to hear you say that. And I do think I'm glad that you're bringing in science because it's caught up, do you know what I mean, with mental health treatment. And we both do a lot of research into the brain now as we take on various topics for the podcast. And I find it riveting because I'm like you. It makes me feel so much hope for people and that just it's advantages that Valerie and I did not have in our treatment lives, you know, so well. Darn. We could sit here and talk to you for another five hours. But I'm going to have to bring the topic to a close, which I want to point out to Valerie seems to always be my job. But our deepest respect and gratitude go to you, Samantha, for sharing this incredible body of knowledge with us. And you're just so eloquent and so generous with what you know and also for the great merits of your express your expression of hope for those fighting mental illnesses today. I'm not sure you know how much hearing such optimism from a seasoned expert in mental health, how uplifting that is for all of us in the battle. So thank you from the bottom of our hearts and our minds. And now for a different kind of uplift. Valerie will guide us through a mindfulness exercise.

Valerie Milburn: I will. What is mindfulness? I always give a definition. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts and bodily sensations without judgment. Today's mindfulness meditation practice is adapted from Mindful Presence Meditations. Today. Let's see if you can cultivate not being attached to any particular outcome of this mindfulness exercise. Try to hold your experience in the.

Valerie Milburn: Light of of awareness.

Valerie Milburn: When the mind is clear, we can see everything more easily. We can be aware non judgmentally of what we are experiencing. Let's try it. Let's get mindful. If you're driving or walking. Please adapt this mindfulness exercise in such.

Valerie Milburn: A way that it works in your current surroundings.

Valerie Milburn: If you can find a comfortable seated.

Valerie Milburn: Position, try closing your eyes. If it's safe to do so, let's settle in. As always, we'll begin with a few diaphragmatic breaths. Whether your eyes are open or closed, let's steady our breathing with two diaphragmatic breaths. When you do this on your own, take as many breaths as you need to become calm and centered. I usually take 10 diaphragmatic breaths to begin my mindfulness and meditation practice. Let's Breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach as you inhale forcefully. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do. Drop your shoulders. Inhale through your nose, expanding that balloon in your stomach. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in. Pull your stomach all the way in. Keep this slow, steady breath going. Bring your attention to how you are feeling today. Bring it to how you are feeling right now. You may notice restlessness or distraction as you begin. Allow it to be there, gently noticing it. Notice when thoughts arise about yourself. Relation to your thoughts and emotions. Is there an ongoing commentary? Try not to feed this stream of thought. Watch it through the lens of awareness. Imagine watching the stream of thoughts with distance. Just label it comments, comments, comments.

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Valerie Milburn: When you are aware of streams of thought, emotion, sensation, see them for what they are. Thoughts, emotions and sensations. They're not who you are. Just identify what thinking or feelings you're having without judging or commenting. Create this distance from the commentary by labeling it. Is it uncertainty? Doubt, Worry, Anger, Fear, Resentment? Can you just label it? Try not to view what you have.

Valerie Milburn: Labeled as a problem.

Valerie Milburn: It is a thought, emotion or sensation. Notice the space between comments when it arises to. Just notice it is the goal, this non judgmental awareness. Can you be okay with the way things are right now? Can you accept whatever has come for you today? In this exercise, focus again on your breath. Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. Notice if how you're feeling now is different than what you believed it would be. If your eyes are closed, please open them and gently bring yourself back to the room.

Valerie Milburn: Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.

Helen Sneed: And thank you Valerie, for those precious moments of awareness. This brings our episode to a close. It's been a rare privilege to talk with Samantha Pothoff, whose insights and professionalism are enlightening, encouraging and so inspiring. And to our listeners everywhere. Thank you for joining us. Valerie and I would appreciate your support to continue on our journey Our greatest goal for this podcast is to reach ever widening audiences around the globe. But we can't do it all on our own. We need you to spread the word about our podcast to the people who need it most. People like us who are involved in the often grueling pursuit of knowledge and hope. Please take the time to post a review on the platform of your choice. This will have a great impact. Or contact us through our website, mental healthhopeandrecovery.com youm can post about us on your social media site, mention us at your book club. Your enthusiasm is exactly what we need most. In our coming episode, we'll tackle what many experts say is the most prevalent mental illness in the world today. Anxiety. In fact, it's often stated that we are living in the age of anxiety. So please join us for a much needed in depth exploration into anxiety and its mighty impact on millions. Until then, I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.