Setbacks are commonplace in most lives, but for individuals with mental health issues, they can be devastating or even lethal. Helen and Valerie are well-versed in setbacks throughout their long journeys to their lives in recovery today. This episode’s remarkable guest, Phoenix Wang, speaks with great candor and eloquence about their lifelong struggle with borderline personality disorder and chronic suicidal ideation. A nationally recognized advocate, writer/filmmaker, mentor, and now podcaster, Phoenix offers intimate and profound revelations about their own experiences, insights and setbacks, from the past up to this very minute. As always, Valerie will wrap up with a mindfulness exercise. This is a riveting, brilliant episode, not to be missed by anyone who is involved with mental health challenges.
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Setbacks on the Road to Recovery
Episode 54
Helen Sneed: Welcome to our award winning podcast, Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational true stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals. But we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery.
Valerie Milburn: So can you this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.
Helen Sneed: Welcome to episode 54, setbacks on the Road to Recovery. Can I ever get back on track? Well, setbacks happen to everyone in life, but they can seem like insurmountable obstacles to a person fighting mental illness. Valerie and I both know this firsthand. As we dive into the subject today, we're going to use this definition. A psychiatric setback refers to a temporary worsening of symptoms or a regression in progress made towards mental health recovery. Now, setbacks also happen to those of us living in recovery. And what really gets me is when someone thinks or says, oh, you got over it. You're just fine for the rest of your life. Right? Wrong. Maintaining recovery is no day at the beach. It's a constant struggle to achieve or to maintain recovery. And setbacks for someone in the throes of psychiatric illness can make the advancement towards any kind of improvement or lessening of pain seem impossible.
Valerie Milburn: We have some great information from the Eisenberg Family Depression center about setbacks. The Eisenberg center defines setbacks as a normal part of the recovery process. Setbacks are not relapses and don't necessarily indicate a failure of treatment. The Eisenberg center offers a list of what causes setbacks. The first one is triggers, defined as a stressful life event or an anniversary of that event. Another one long term stressors such as an illness or financial difficulties major life events such as a new job, divorce or a move. Another is medication changes or sleep disturbance or substance use, even recreational use. The center also offers strategies for dealing with setbacks and these are Acknowledge and accept the setback. Easier said than done. Seek support, review your coping strategies, adjust your treatment plan, Practice self care, Limit substances, Stay connected, don't give up. It's temporary. Here are some of the things to call on as we strive to bounce back from a setback. Resilience, patience, self compassion, connection, self care and treatment assessment and to wrap up, here are the positive things that can come as a result. As we rebound from a setback,
Valerie Milburn: we often gain a new perspective, find our treatment is more effective, we can have increased self respect and very important, we have an increased confidence in our ability to handle any future setbacks.
Helen Sneed: Well. Today we have an amazing guest to help us investigate the role of setbacks in psychiatric illnesses and recovery. It's our unique pleasure to welcome Phoenix Wang to our podcast. I've known Phoenix for almost 20 years and as you'll see, they are an extraordinary person in so many respects. Phoenix has dedicated much of their life to advocacy and speaking on behalf of people with mental health challenges and all the while was fighting their own private battle with life threatening mental illness. Now Phoenix is a passionate advocate and storyteller who has navigated the complexities of mental health. Since receiving a diagnosis of Borderline Personality disorder back in 2007. Phoenix has made vast contributions to the community of those affected by mental illness. They founded New York City's only in person peer led support group for Borderline Personality Disorder. Phoenix has shared their journey and insights at prestigious venues such as the National Institute of Mental Health, Yale University School of Medicine, Columbia University and the national alliance on Mental Illness. Widely recognized for their contributions to mental health awareness, Phoenix has been featured in various magazines and books, has published numerous articles and blogs, and even created a documentary film about their journey. Their advocacy has earned Phoenix the 2017 Fountain House Humanitarian Award in New York City and recently they started their own podcast, the Phoenix Wang Podcast that is available on Spotify and Substack. Currently pursuing a graduate degree in Social work, Phoenix aims to become a licensed trauma informed therapist by May 2026 and above all, they are a proud parent to Their nine year old son embodying the resilience and love that underpin their journey. So welcome to mental health hope and recovery. Phoenix, we are delighted to have you.
Valerie Milburn: Oh my goodness, what a wonderful and so grateful to be here. Both to you, Helen and Valerie. That opening introduction makes me want to cry, especially about how my son has impacted my life because he truly has been the miracle that I never saw coming, you know.
Valerie Milburn: So glad to have you here. Thank you for sharing your time and your experience with us and our listeners. Truly have just such a wonderful journey to hear from you.
Valerie Milburn: Thank you.
Helen Sneed: Well, all right, Phoenix, so Valerie and I have really been looking forward to this conversation about setbacks because you know, we all have them. So let's just do jump in and begin. Your professional and public roles are reflected in your bio. So my first question is more personal. Can you tell us some of the story of your struggles and triumphs with mental illness?
Valerie Milburn: It's been a long journey. I started out having mental health challenges since I was 15 years old. I started having these thoughts and urges to die very quickly. 35 years of having a hard time with suicide and it's been a challenge. Was mentioned before. I was also diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and I have done multiple therapies and treatments, of course, medication and with the borderline personality disorder diagnosis. I also have been doing dialectical behavior therapy for the past 18 years. And I've also done things like IFS, which is internal family systems, ketamine therapies, electrical convulsive therapies and EMDR for eye movements. Desensitive EMDR. I'll just leave it as EMDR.
Valerie Milburn: It's a tough one. I know I struggle with it every time.
Valerie Milburn: And going through the mental health system, I've for the most part been an outpatient
Valerie Milburn: client. But I have also done inpatient settings and partial hospitalization settings as well. So I have, I have a lot of experience in all the different parts of mental health system.
Helen Sneed: It sounds like you've tried just about everything.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, yes. And all of them, some of them more helpful than others. But I'm just glad that I found my way to here. It's been a ride.
Valerie Milburn: It has been. And that's the what we'd love for you to share next is here. Where are you today in your mental health journey?
Valerie Milburn: I've heard you use the word recovery. And for most of my life I've been searching to find recovery. And I think what happened to me is I thought recovery meant that I would no longer live with symptoms And I would just be like what I call an average normal person with normal problems. But I never got there. I continue to have struggles with mental health. I'm very sensitive, both like in the environment and when people talk to me. I'm very sensitive. And like a lot of people with borderline personality disorder, I have a.
Helen Sneed: High.
Valerie Milburn: Sensitivity or intense feelings. And I have a hard time going back to baseline. And so this has followed me my whole life. Sometimes I'm without symptoms for maybe at one time I had it for maybe a year I was medication and therapy free. But for the most part it has been a struggle. And at one point I was even going to write a book called BPD and the Quest for Recovery, that was the title. And I just had so much hard time and I felt bad that I couldn't find recovery until just this very, this last weekend. This last weekend. I thought about it real hard. And especially with my difficulties with the urges to die, they have constantly been there, my, my what it seems to be my whole entire life. And I said to myself, I don't think they'll ever go away. And it was so hard for me to say that out loud to myself. But then I thought, you know, Marsha Linehan talks about radical acceptance and what if I radically accept these urges to die? How would that change my life? How would that change my attitude towards what I struggle with? And I said to myself, maybe I could live a remarkable life even when having urges to die. Because I thought before that was not possible. But now, you know, I've come to a point where I really feel like I, it's possible, like I feel like the potential is there for me to have a remarkable life. And, and to me that means like being creative or connecting with someone else on a very human and emotional level or just finding beauty in seeing a tree or a sunset. These things are what makes my life remarkable. And before, when I was struggling with these urges to die, I would deny those things. I would not be able to accept those parts of life because I was so mired in this thoughts of suicide. And so I don't know, I, I, I just find like maybe there's a way to do both to, I mean not to like give power to the urges, but to allow them to happen in a way where you, there's a respect for your struggle. It's almost like a balm, you know. You know how like in some
Valerie Milburn: religious ceremonies, people use oil to help heal the wounds. And it's almost like you are approaching your wounds, your struggles, your Setbacks with a balm. It's almost like respecting it and just take, like cultivating it and taking tender care for it and do. In doing so, you get a different perspective of how you will go about your setbacks and struggles. And it's almost to a point where you can use those struggles to help you and to help make you remarkable. I don't think I would be the person I am today, if I may say so, being remarkable. True, if I didn't have all those struggles, you know, I would never want to have anyone live the life that I have with these struggles of BPD and with thoughts of suicide. But at the same time, this is my life. And I want so desperately to live my life in a way where I can feel so proud of myself and the desire to even work harder and live life more to the fullest and just be so bountiful in the, in the way that I live my life. I. I would just want it all to be okay, you know. And that's my hope. That's my hope for right now. That's who I am right now.
Helen Sneed: Actually kind of blown away by what you're saying because the radical acceptance aspect of it, you know, and the has was something that I just was adamantly opposed to it. I just said why would I accept something like that? But life in h***, why would I accept that? You know. But then what happened to me is, it's exactly what you're describing is I found room inside myself for both for the negative and the self destructive and all the suicidality and all that stuff. And it just said, it's just what you're saying. This is part of who I am. But I also have room. My thing is I want to be a life force character in the world and enthuse other people with a love for life. And I do have room for both. And I think what people like us have to do, I know Valerie's probably in the same boat, is you have to realize that at times the hard stuff is going to come to the fore again. You know, to me it's keeping them in balance kind of. Yes.
Valerie Milburn: And what you said brings me such hope. And as you gave that analogy of a bomb, I kind of felt this sense of peace kind of roll over me and because I have not dealt with suicidal ideation in quite a number of years, but I lived in it for so long and there's, you know, a chance that, that. Well, it's most likely that will return because as we've been talking about, setbacks are A normal part of living with a mental health condition. And I know that I could draw on what you just said, that I could come to the acceptance that I may have to live with those urges again for a while and that they are very strong for me and. But I could come to the radical acceptance, the way you just described it, that I could continue to be the grandmother I am and the mother I am and the podcaster I am and the friend I am and the friend. The friend to scores of people while struggling. And you gave me a balm right now. And I just. And I just thank you for offering that hope and for being who you are and what you're doing. It's. You are remarkable. And you've just offered me a piece of hope then I will cherish.
Valerie Milburn: I'm so glad. I'm so happy that we're all, like, sharing in this language of healing and enthusiasm, too, to work hard on being who we are and making us be our best selves for our family, for our friends, and for us, too. For us or taking care of ourselves in the ways we need to have love and acceptance for ourselves, too. Something very hard for me to do was to accept myself. I still have a
Valerie Milburn: hard time with that, but, you know, it's something I strive for.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah.
Helen Sneed: Well, I think for me that it. I would imagine for all of us, three of us, that for me, it became such a deep, reaching change that I think I had to change parts of my identity, my very identity, in order to accommodate again both the negative things inside me and then these terrific, positive things. And because I had always thought it's all or nothing, and that's where I was. And I think that trips a lot of people up. I know it did me.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. I was thinking about this question and I'm like, I think I have setbacks every day. It's so hard for me to get through to the next day, from one day to the next. But if I think about my major setbacks, the ones where I was in the hospital and, you know, just, just almost just not there, not present, where I'd be dissociating a lot, like a lot of my life I've spent dissociating and not being present because I was hiding for, for so long about my sexual identity. And I just couldn't come to terms with it. And so I just shut down. And that led to my first bout with suicide. And luckily, friends of mine were like, we've done everything we, we could for you, and you're going to the therapist, you're taking medicine, but we don't think it's enough. I think you have to go to the hospital. And I was so scared. I thought to myself, you know, if I go to the hospital, they're going to think I'm crazy and, and they're going to lock me up. And that was my impression of what was going to happen when I went to the hospital. And the interesting part of it is I learned so much from being there. I learned so much from listening to the other patients, my peers, and how they saw things and how they were able to grow from this hardship or setback. And I knew then that this would help me so much. But when I went to the hospital, they gave me a structure. And in that structure, I was able to weave myself around that structure. And it helped me to get into like, dialectical behavior therapy to good psychiatrists to learn about peers. And the best thing of all, I think, from being at that first hospital admission, was I started what you mentioned before, was the peer support group for people with borderline personality disorder. Because what happened was when I left the Hospital,
Valerie Milburn: I was missing that social, that peer support part of it. So I decided to make that something that other people would benefit from as well.
Valerie Milburn: That's a really great outcome. And, you know, I was thinking about my first setback and I, I had several where I did go to the hospital, but I had one that really hit me in a different way, and it was the first setback. And when I had been in recovery for a while, I'd been sober for three years and had a good two years of stability with my mental health conditions. But I was teaching school, I had changed professions after my complete and total crash, my psychiatric breakdown, and had major stresses going on at work. And then there were three events that happened at the school where I was teaching that triggered some of my PTSD symptoms. And I could not continue working full time. I had to go part time to part time teaching status. And that was when I was afraid that I was going to return to the worst state of my mental health journey. I just kept telling asking myself, am I going all the way back? Am I going to become very, very sick again? But with a lot of support, a medication change, increased therapy, and the use of every tool I had, I fought my way back. And by doing that, over time, with each setback, I learned to fear less and less that I was going all the way back. And that's what I look back now and know, that when each setback comes now, I don't think at all that I'm going all the way back. And that's just been a gift of the setbacks. Like I said in the beginning, you know that the positive thing that can come is that with each one, I have more and more confidence that I'm not going to crash all the way again. And that leads me to the next question, because it is about triggers. And it was the, the triggers that caused me to have that major setback, even at three years of sobriety and a couple of years of recovery. So are there certain situations or relationships that can trigger a setback for you? And if so, are you able to diminish the power of these triggers either because they're familiar to you or other reasons that give you ways to diminish the power of these triggers?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, so I think that's a very important question. I have, like, I categorize my triggers into two different categories. I guess. One is like physical or environmental triggers. So those are like sound or texture or being in a loud conversation or someone's yelling. And I would, I often freeze and dissociate and then after that comes my urges to die. And so what I've learned to do, and I'm still learning, is, of course, to take myself out of the environment, to find somewhere more peaceful, more calm, to do breath work, or even to talk to someone and say, hey, I'm having a hard time here. What do you think I can do to help myself? And they usually are receptive to helping. And the other thing I just learned, I'm a big baseball fan, and we were. We were going to the games at the stadium, and. Which is great. I love my team, and it's great. But I was so sensitive to the crowd noise, to all the audio sounds and everything, so I bought myself earplugs that you could. You could change the way how much volume you can listen.
Valerie Milburn: I have some of those. Yeah.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. That's so awesome. So now I could go there. And to be honest, so tonight, my. My son is having his concert, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to, like, survive it because of all the noise. So I'm gonna bring the earplugs so I can, like, put it. Put the earplugs on when the other people are. Are singing and playing, and when my son comes on, I can, like, actually listen to it. So I was like, oh, this is such a good solution for this problem.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah.
Valerie Milburn: The other category that I often have difficulty with is, I guess, triggers from certain relationships.
Valerie Milburn: I had a hard time with my father growing up. He's a great person, but I think our personalities just didn't gel well. And so he would often have a loud voice when he talked to me, and often would kind of yell. And that triggered me. And what happens is, you know, he would tell me to look at him while he was yelling at me. And so I would look at him. I look, like, straight into his eyes. But in my head, I was dissociating, saying to myself, I will never be this angry to anyone ever. And that became my thing, my promise to myself. Like, I don't experience anger at all. I like. I don't express it, which became very hard for me. When life, you know, happens and you get angry sometimes, and I. I couldn't allow myself to express this anger. So it's only to. I've been trying to work on it very hard in therapy. You know, sometimes I say, you know, I was frustrated. And then my therapist would say, were you really angry? You know, so she tries to help me express that, my anger and. And to this.
Helen Sneed: It's hard to get it out if you've. Our whole life, you thought it was, like, the worst thing a person could do.
Valerie Milburn: Yes.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. I was in.
Helen Sneed: Especially a female.
Valerie Milburn: I was in a group. Yeah.
Helen Sneed: Get angry.
Valerie Milburn: I was in a group therapy session, and after the therapist said, are you ready for some feedback? After I'd shared, I said, sure. And the feedback was, man, you are so angry. And I kept saying, I'm not angry.
Valerie Milburn: I'm not angry.
Valerie Milburn: I could not even identify that I appeared angry and was angry because I. So disconnected from my feelings about anger.
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah.
Valerie Milburn: Oh, wow. And, you know, so to this day, like, any loud noises and increased volume of your voice brings me back to those moments. And so I'm still working, trying to figure out, like, what can I do to help stabilize myself. But. But you're right, there. There also needs to be an acknowledgment of my own, like, owning my anger in order to express it in a safe way.
Helen Sneed: Well, I just always thought that what I had to do with my anger was eat it, and it just festered for decades, and that's all. I'm still bad at expressing it, but I have to have notes. But that's a different story. This whole business, this question. I think that Valerie, about the triggers and just familiarity help you deal with them. Recently, I was suddenly hit so hard by a flashback to the original abuse. I felt like I'd been hit by lightning, and I was completely paralyzed. But then I realized what was happening to me, and so I made myself stand up and walk around the room, and I told myself, you're having a flashback. It will be all right. And I repeated that sentence, and I calmed myself down, and I was able to stop the triggering and come back into the present, which this, for me, is. First of all, it's an Old Testament miracle, but it gives me a sense of. Of personal power over my. These feelings and these things that happen that I've never had before. And, you know, because now I recognize what is happening to me, and I know what to do to stop it. And about 99% of the time, it works. So this, I think, is really an important question, which is, Phoenix, what skills or treatment methods and relationships have you used to overcome a setback? And do you use the same old methods that have helped you earlier in your journey? And have you discovered some new methods that also help?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. It's so interesting because I've been in dialectical behavior therapy for more than half of my life, and it's so ingrained. In me. I almost like it. Just naturally, the skills just naturally come out.
Helen Sneed: But.
Valerie Milburn: So what I am working on now is, like, what's hard for me is understanding that I'm a real person. I know this sounds a little absurd, but I don't feel like I exist, which is probably why I have a hard time with my urges to die. And I realized that then, thinking hard, like my therapist has. I've been having this hard
Valerie Milburn: time with leaving my therapist and being very anxious after I leave and, like, trying to hold on to everything that she's saying, and I just get really worked up about it. And she said to me, you know, we're working together here. What we do here is to help you become your most human and best and fullest self. And that's what we're trying to do in here. So you can do that outside. And this is your place to do that. You have the entire. You can express yourself in any way you want, and I'll be here for you for that. And what happens is you go out and do that.
Helen Sneed: You. You.
Valerie Milburn: We have that in our therapy, and then we go out and practice those things we learned, and then we come back week after week after week. And what that made me realize is I'm like a real person to her. Like, I can see our relationship as a real, tangible thing, which I did not have in any of my other relationships. And so that makes me feel like, okay, if this is real, I can start here. And maybe I can now believe that I'm real and that I exist and that I don't need to die anymore, and I don't need to be afraid of leaving my therapist for the whole week, because we have a real relationship that is based on understanding and respect and mutual, like, presence or something like that.
Valerie Milburn: That's. That's a wonderful connection and a. A connection I have had with my psychiatrist for many years. And I know what that feels like, to know that there's somebody who sees me for exactly who I am, because I have allowed myself to be open enough to let that person see me. But it took a while. You know, I had seen him for years before I was totally vulnerable and saw that. That he saw me for who I completely am. And then the relationship was so nurturing and let me grow and see who I am completely.
Helen Sneed: Well, I am just. In terms of looking at what methods helped me during a setback. It was the biggest one, I guess, I've ever known. And I've had sort of a dramatic time of it. Three months ago, I All of a sudden had trouble speaking. And so I was taken to the emergency room and they did a scan, thinking I was having a stroke. Well, the doctor came out and said that I had had a mini stroke, but that I had a very big aneurysm in my brain. And so he immediately sent me in the ambulance to the hospital in town that has the best neurosurgery department. And this began what was literally a life and death race to the finish while I was in intensive care. Now, a small aneurysm is 5 millimeters, about the size of a pencil's eraser. Mine is 26 millimeters, which means that it's larger than a quarter. And they are called giant aneurysms, which I don't know why, just cracks me up. But anyway, and it is big, ugly, fragile, and very, very dangerous because they were given to rupturing and killing the person. So, anyway, so here I am. I was experiencing the final symptoms for an aneurysm that was about to explode. And a brilliant surgeon and an experimental device that he had couriered in from California were literally my only chance to survive. So the night before the operation, the hospital representative informed me that there were no other options if it failed. They would keep me comfortable, which I found very little comfort in that. And her final advice was to tell me, you might want to make some calls tonight. Well, so, needless to say, this was all incredibly traumatic. And I'd never been in a hospital, never had anesthesia, never had surgery. I was completely green. My medications were late or wrong or just missing, and I was just stuck full of needles. I was attached to all these tubes. But here's what happened. To my astonishment and everyone else's, I was very together throughout this entire ordeal. I mean, I was centered. There was no hyperarousal,
Helen Sneed: and I was able to manage my thoughts, which. And I was not in feelings, and I was not plunged, you know, into abject terror. So if a negative or scary thought came into my mind, I looked at it and then let it go by. And the only thing. This is such a shock to me. The only thing I can think of is what you said earlier. Phoenix. I use dbt, so, you know, it's engraved on my synapses now. It is just I'd use it without thinking. And, you know, I just can't believe, though, that these skills and methods really worked when I was facing death. I mean, I keep saying this, I honestly can't believe it, but that is what happened. And I want to write Marshall Linehan A letter thanking her because I didn't know it was going to help in such extreme circumstances. But anyway, I used the skills for eight solid, long days. And the other thing, of course, that saved me was people. My family, friends, the hospital staff were so kind and supportive. They bolstered me throughout. And I reached out to people and let them help me more than I have ever accepted help in my life, because I'm really bad at that. And I have to say, everything outside, to this very minute, I believe I'm the luckiest woman alive.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, I was out of town and got one of those calls from Helen. And I don't even need to say how grateful I am that that device worked and that there was a miraculously skilled surgeon. Take care of our Helen and keep her with us. I can't. I can't keep talking because I'll start crying anyway.
Valerie Milburn: May I say something, too?
Valerie Milburn: Yes, of course.
Valerie Milburn: I just find it like you never know what you've learned or experienced in the past that will help you in a future situation, and that's that. That exemplifies that so much. How, like, you know, you learn these skills, and you're like, oh, what does this have to do with my life? That has nothing to do with my life. And then one day you come through a challenge and you're like, oh, I can own this. This is. This is not a difficult thing. I can do this. And you're like, oh, it's because I learned DBT or something like that.
Helen Sneed: So, yeah, you're right. And I attribute DBT to. It is the basic essential thing that allowed me to begin to recover is using those skills. Because I was completely alone and those skills worked. And I had been so just sort of condescending about the whole thing. Oh, what are these skills? They don't do any good. And then all of a sudden, they worked way back then, and then they worked again in this intensive care, not knowing if I was going to make it or not. And just. I was very. I just can't believe it. I was very together.
Valerie Milburn: You two just gave a perfect prelude to my mindfulness exercise today. So stick around.
Helen Sneed: We will.
Valerie Milburn: So we previously talked about anger a bit, and we have these setbacks, and they're bad enough, and we struggle through them, and it's normal during this time to feel things like guilt, anger, shame, sadness for having this setback in the first place. Now, Phoenix, have you found ways to counter these feelings with maybe acceptance, self compassion, other strategies?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, I'm. I mean, like I mentioned before, I'M trying to practice radical acceptance of not only my urges, but just, you know, life in general and things that are difficult for me. I've been trying very hard to be more mindful about my breath and trying to do just simple mindfulness of just listening to my breath. And I still have a big challenge walking outside and, like, doing something productive with my physical health. But it's a goal of mine to do that, too.
Valerie Milburn: You know, one of the feelings that comes with the setback, that is anger for me. And once I learned to recognize my anger, it helped me to finally learn that anger is a symptom of depression. And after I had learned that and had the ability to identify my anger, it helped me so much because knowing that helped me identify earlier that I was entering a depression.
Valerie Milburn: And for me, the earlier I catch it, the better.
Helen Sneed: I mean, I'm sure you've heard that definition of depression is anger turned inward, which is a story of my life from the age of four. So now, Phoenix, are you comfortable telling friends or family that you're experiencing a setback? Can you confide in them or someone?
Valerie Milburn: Oh, that's been one of the hardest things for me to do. Yeah. A lot of times I will just be quiet. I'm already a quiet person to begin with. And when I'm going through a difficult time, I barely say anything. And I think people know that I'm going through a difficult time because I stopped talking. But, no, I. I need encouragement from my therapist to, like, if she says, maybe you should talk to, you know, your mom or your friend and open up to them, tell them a little bit about what's going on. It's like pulling teeth for me. It's very hard, But I know when I do it, it's so different. It's like a release or like, just, you know, I could just unburden myself. And so I have to practice that a lot more.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, it's hard. I know learning to tell someone was hard for me, and yet has been one of the keys to digging out. And I am lucky that I have two people in my life whom I trust when they tell me they're seeing symptoms. I had to learn that if. If years ago, if they said something to me about, I see you're struggling or doing this, and I'm worried that, you know, you need to address that or however loving way they put it. I used to say, what do you know? And now I can respect them. That's my husband and my sister. I respect their input. I have an interesting question have you had to maintain a job or deliver a major project in the midst of a setback? And if so, how did you handle it?
Valerie Milburn: Yes, so I am known by my therapist to be apparently competent. That's like a DBT term that means like, you can be suffering inside so incredibly torturous, you know, like, feelings and still maintain your sense of work and commitment to your family and all those other things that you do in life. And no one would know. And that has been my life story because every time I went to the hospital, no one had any idea that that would happen. Oftentimes when I'm in an internship or a job where it's kind of has a hospital setting or a health setting, I go through these difficulties of managing my urges and it comes to a point where it's really hard for me to concentrate and focus and do my job. And so oftentimes I'll. I'll kind of take off sometimes for just like a mental health day and other times when it's gotten real bad, I, if I know I can trust the supervisor that I have, I'll share with them my difficulty that I'm experiencing mental health issues. Usually they are very accommodating and receptive to it. Sometimes they even suggest maybe, oh, you should try for disability if you need to take even more time for that. One time, I think it was my second time that I was hospitalized. I left work for that hospitalization. It was like three or four weeks and I came back and I. I realized that this is, this was not what aligned with what I wanted to do and what do I want to be in life? And so I gave my resignation to start something new. I don't know if that was the best idea, but I just felt like, you know, that it was what I needed to do at that time to navigate my mental health.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, sometimes it is. When I went part time, it was the right thing to do, to halfway walk away.
Helen Sneed: I always handle setbacks with humor and efficiency and ultimately with success. This was outwardly, of course, because I was this raging workaholic and never stopped. But then at night, late at night, I'd go home alone and crash, you know, night after night and isolate, weeping
Helen Sneed: and cutting and not answering the phone. And I'd cancel plans with friends and hating myself always and becoming increasingly suicidal. But I never told anyone how bad. I wouldn't call someone and say, you know, I'm having a really hard time. I wouldn't do that. And so I, again, I was fine when I was out. It's Like Phoenix said, you know, it's this double life, and you just do so well in public. And so when I was with people and colleagues, I continued to put on quite a show. And I look back on it now, and the oddest thing is, is that this sounds kind of crazy, but, you know, had this really good career. But I look on it now, and, you know, the whole thing was kind of like a symptom.
Valerie Milburn: I love the term. Is it apparently competent?
Valerie Milburn: I called it apparently competent, but I think that it's more known as apparent competence.
Valerie Milburn: Well, whatever it is, I was that. And I. I once got a job on an outpatient pass from a psychiatric hospital. I. I had made it through two interviews for this job, even though I was struggling terribly, but I got sicker and I went back into the hospital. While in the hospital, I got the call back for the third and final interview. So I asked for and received an outpatient pass to go to the interview. My dad brought me clothes for the interview, took me there and waited for me while I interviewed. And I was like 34 years old at this time. Anyway, yeah, I got the job, so I was apparently competent.
Helen Sneed: Well, and I. I got one calling from the pay phone in the. In the hallway of the psychiatric unit and. And called and. And asked for a job from an old friend and got it. And I just thought, I'm so glad no one was, like, screaming or something in the background. It went really well, but it was. I had to borrow the dime or quarter, whatever it was.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. More proof that we're kindred spirits, Helen, that we both have that experience.
Helen Sneed: Now, here's kind of a more somber question. What sustains you in the darkest and most difficult days? And during these times, can you maintain hope for improvement over your current condition, even if you can see it way down the line?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. When I have very difficult moments where I just don't know how I'm going to get out of it. And this comes from, like, so many different sides of, like, the urges to the, like, it's. It's almost like you're fighting yourself in order to live. And so you are so desperate to find hope, and you'll take hope wherever you can get it. And what is most hopeful for me and what I had to ask for with, you know, where I start with my relationship with my therapist is I asked her, I was like, can you just believe in me? Because if you believe in me, I will. It will just go so far, and I know someone in my mind is there present with me, like you don't have to do anything. Just say you believe in me and I will be able to just work through this terrible experience that I'm having. And she, yes, she said that she, she believes in me and like, so that has helped a lot. But I've also known that in my mind it helps to a point. And what has really, I figured out, really helped is when I'm one on one with my therapist and she just like, is there and she's just, just not only believing in me but just like holding on to hope for me. Like, she'll just say something very nurturing or very, like just, you know how she'll say it. And that connection, just, just the connection alone is what will get me through to the next day or the next hour. It's just being there with someone and I hope I can do that for others as well. I hope I could do that, like have that experience with other people, not just my therapist, but it's such an important experience for me.
Valerie Milburn: That's a beautiful thought and very powerful to have someone do that for us, to believe in us. And my sponsor told me when I first got sober, when I had trashed relationships, I was a wreck,
Valerie Milburn: was barely functioning. I hated myself. And she said, I will love you until you can love yourself. And that was this, that was what I needed, somebody to love me and believe in me. And I'm going to ask you something that I know you have a lot of to give to our listeners. Insights and advice. What are your best insights and your best advice for a person struggling with a setback?
Valerie Milburn: I think one of the most important things that I've learned when I'm struggling with mental health challenges is to know I'm not alone. So I would, I would make sure I built up a team, therapeutic team or a supportive team of people where it's like my psychiatrist, my therapist, even my ob GYN or even like my parents and my brother, my friends, they all somehow work together. Some can pick up where others cannot and, you know, they all can't do everything for you. So having this team of people supporting you is so important for me to get to the next step.
Helen Sneed: Phoenix, this is our final question, and it's a big one. What gives you hope for people today who are experiencing setbacks that threaten their ability to recover?
Valerie Milburn: Well, the one hope that I have for people is that again, we're not alone. You can find the person. You just got to be diligent about it. If one fails, find another one. If that fails, you can just Keep on trying until you find someone or multiple people to help you through your setbacks and struggles. The other thing is, I said earlier how, you know, sometimes we say despite our mental health issues or our struggles and setbacks, we can still live. And sometimes that is also called apparent competence. But what my understanding is, sometimes we can be remarkable even with our setbacks and struggles. I think it's so important to know that sometimes people say all your mental illness defines you, but I think it helps breathe a new dimension and a new, like, enriched character or part of you that you would have never discovered without it. And so that gives me hope that I can utilize my setbacks in a way that I never knew I could in a positive way. And sometimes that's through helping others, contributing with others, telling your story, or even creating something like a painting or a ceramic, you know, something that identifies this setback as a piece of artwork. And you can almost like, like I was just thinking, like, you can almost like, separate yourself from the setback or, like, have distance from it because you are creating this thing. And the very act of creating is a realization to me that I exist, that I'm a human person, that I belong here, and I'm worth the heartache and trouble and work and laughter and hugs.
Helen Sneed: Well, that's an amazing answer, but we're getting spoiled by euphox. And I wanted to thank you for taking us along with you on your journey today. And you possess this vast body of knowledge and experience, and in fighting borderline personality disorder daily, year after year, you have remarkable strength, courage, and spirit that have coalesced into this expansive generosity toward others who are fighting the same battle. I mean, you've been doing this for years. You've done it for me, and you've done it again for our listeners today. So I just want to thank you. I think both Vallie and I thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
Valerie Milburn: Absolutely.
Helen Sneed: And. And now Valerie will lead us in a mindfulness exercise.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, I will. What is mindfulness? I always give a definition. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing
Valerie Milburn: one's awareness on the present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations without judgment. Today's mindfulness exercise is about resiliency, and it's called raise your sail. I'll begin with a quote from Gregory S. Williams. Here's his quote. On the other side of a storm is the strength that comes from having navigated through it. Raise your sail and begin. When I'm in a storm, a personal, emotional, physical, or Spiritual storm. I like to think of that quote. I try to call to mind a similar situation that I previously navigated my way through and the strengths I gained from the experience. Like we were talking about earlier, I remind myself that those strengths are within me. I ask myself, can I find my resiliency and call upon my strengths? Can I raise my sail and begin? Can I begin to navigate the storm I'm currently in? I mean, I've navigated many storms, and yes, I tell myself that I can sail through this one. So I called mine my strengths. I raise my sail and begin. I have to begin. Let's try it. Let's get mindful. If you're driving or walking, please adapt this mindfulness exercise in such a way that it works in your current surroundings. If you can find a comfortable seated position, try closing your eyes. If it's safe and comfortable for you to do so. Let's settle in. As always, we'll begin with a few diaphragmatic breaths. Whether your eyes are open or closed, let's steady our breathing with two diaphragmatic breaths. When you do this on your own, take as many breaths as you need to become calm and centered. I usually take about 10 diaphragmatic breaths to begin my mindfulness and meditation practice. Let's breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach. As you inhale, hold it for a second. Forcefully exhale through your mouth, pulling in your stomach as you do so. Drop your shoulders. Inhale through your nose. Expand that balloon as you inhale. Forcefully exhale through your mouth, pulling in your stomach. Pull your stomach all the way in. Keep this slow, steady breath going. Now bring to mind a challenging or difficult situation. A storm that you have navigated your way through in the past. What strengths came from surviving or even conquering that storm? Was your ability to be patient strengthened? Was your self compassion strengthened? Did you discover more determination and commitment than you thought you had? Perhaps you learned new skills as you navigated the storm. Maybe dialectical behavior therapy skills or cogn cognitive behavioral skills? Was your spirituality strengthened? Did you find strength from family, friends, or health professionals? What strengths did you gain from the storm? Now bring yourself to this present moment. Moment in this moment. What strengths do you have to carry you through any storms that lie ahead? Or maybe a storm
Valerie Milburn: that you are currently battling? Name those strengths. They are yours. Embrace those strengths. They are yours. Visualize raising your sail. Emblazon your sail with your strengths. Emblazone with big bold letters. Visualize that sail. It is raised and you can begin. If your eyes are closed, please open them and gently bring yourself back to the room. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.
Helen Sneed: Valerie. That was a. That was magnificent. Thank you so much.
Valerie Milburn: You're welcome.
Helen Sneed: We want to express our deepest gratitude again to Phoenix and to our listeners everywhere around the globe. I suppose the key lesson of the day is to remember that setbacks are temporary and can be overcome. Next time, we will explore a topic that has captivated us. Valerie and I are preparing an episode all about happiness. Happiness has become a legitimate area of study and research in the psychiatric field, and what they're learning has a direct impact on those of us with mental health issues and those who support us. Please join us for this episode. You'll be happy that you did. And until then, I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.