The Healing Power of Animals and Pets is a revelation and celebration for Helen, Valerie and listeners everywhere. The positive impact of animals on people with mental health challenges is as uplifting as it is irrefutable. Science shows that the closeness and touch of a pet can stimulate mood-enhancing hormones in the brain; help with emotional regulation; ward off depression and sadness; promote healthy connections. The use of animals began sixty years ago, and now is recognized as an effective method in many cases. Two expert animal therapists, one in Equine Therapy with horses, and one in Canine Therapy with dogs, are fascinating guests whose experiences and successes bring tears to the eye and hope to the heart.
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The Healing Power of Animals and Pets
Episode 43
Helen Sneed: Welcome to our award winning podcast, Mental Health Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational true stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals, but we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery, so can you.
Valerie Milburn: This podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.
Helen Sneed: Welcome to episode 43, the healing power of Animals and Pets. Today we're going to focus on the wonderful, miraculous healing power of animals for those of us with mental health challenges. Valerie I can't think of a topic that's brought such positive, upbeat feelings to our work. You know, a lot of joy.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, it's been very uplifting looking at just how, you know, inspirational it is to be around animals and to talk to those who are bringing this connection to others.
Helen Sneed: Well, what we're. Well, we're going to be examining this. But. But the loving connection with animals and pets can lead to healthy and fulfilling connections with people. And as George Eliot said, animals are such agreeable friends. They ask no questions, they pass no criticisms. Today we're focusing on equine therapy with horses and canine therapy with dogs. And here's a note to our listeners. With such a wide range of pets in people's lives, we only wish we could have included every type. That's a special message to cat people everywhere.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, cat people love their cats. And, you know, I mentioned how inspiring it has been to talk with people who are bringing the connection of animals to people who are in need of that connection. And that's why we are so excited to hear from two professionals in the field of healing therapy with animals for those clients who are fighting for recovery with mental health challenges and recovery in other areas of their lives. And these professionals are involved in work that is fascinating and inspirational and full of promise and healing. And our first guest today is Max Woodfin of Divine Canines. And Divine Canines partners with volunteer handlers and their trained dogs to share with the community the gifts of joy and unconditional love that their dogs give so freely. Max became executive director of Divine Canines 11 years ago after similar positions with Earthshare of Texas and the city of Austin's combined charities campaign. He's as well known in the Austin nonprofit community
Valerie Milburn: for his outstanding contributions as he and his rescue dog Rosebud are known on the hike and bike trail for their daily run. Now, our second guest today is Rebecca Hubbard of Pecan Creek Ranch in Salado, Texas. Rebecca is an author, a natural lifemanship trainer, and a master's level marriage and family therapist with 30 years of experience treating individuals and families that have experienced trauma. Rebecca is a co owner of Pecan Creek Ranch, and there she provides psychotherapy that incorporates horses into treatment.
Helen Sneed: Well, Valerie, we're looking at animal therapy. And the great thing about it, I mean, the, the irony of it, is that animal therapy began completely by accident when Dr. Boris Levinson noticed that a silent, withdrawn, withdrawn young patient began to interact with his dog, Jingles, who interrupted the session. Now, this was in the very early 60s, and since then, animal therapy has become recognized as a valid treatment method. Why is this? Well, now we have the science to prove it. The presence of an animal prompts the body to release serotonin, prolactin and oxytocin. These wonderful hormones generate a relaxation and stress reducing response, according to UCLA Health. And also these same hormones can actually lower depression and sadness. Perhaps this helps explain why 63 million American households have a dog. Now, here are some of the benefits of major benefits of animal therapy. Connection and a loving relationship with a pet can be easier for a Person with mental illness. There's, you know, abuse and trauma, abandonment. These things create obstacles to trust and closeness with people. But an animal connection can lead to connections with humans. There's the importance of touch and tactile sensation. You know, that's to hold, hug, groom. This leads to the regulation of body and emotions through touch, development of a sense of play, fun, movement, and finally, responsibility for another being. Feeding, walking, grooming, loving an animal. So let's take a look first at canine therapy. Valerie. And as Josh Billings said, a dog is the only thing that loves you more than you love yourself.
Valerie Milburn: Well, I tell you what, that's certainly true about my two Labrador retrievers. Oh, man, did they love me. And I loved them just as much. I had two big burly dogs. The chocolate lab was named Moose. He was the big burly one. And I had a sleeker one, his brother, a yellow lab named Gator. And they were amazing. A couple of things that just have stuck with me over the years. Once I was sitting on the steps to our entry hall, and I was extremely distraught, and I was crying, and those dogs came and sat beside me, one on either side of me as I was crying. And they both just sat there still and tall and kind of like regal protectors. And, you know, I put one arm around each one of them. Those dogs leaned into me, and that was 200 pounds of canine comfort. Another memory I have of the was this of Gator. He and I were walking on our ranch, and I tripped over a little rock or a tree branch, root or something, and I fell hard. I had the wind knocked out of me, and I could not get up. Gator was close by, but in the brush out of sight, and immediately he was next to me, and he circled me, kept going around and around me until I recovered enough to sit up. I wasn't hurt, and I was able to stand up and we continued our walk. But, you know, I am convinced that if I had been hurt, Gator would have run back to the house, which was a mile away, and he would have led my husband back to me. No kidding. I have no doubt, Helen, that that dog would have run back to the. If I had been hurt.
Helen Sneed: What a wonderful dog.
Valerie Milburn: He was great. I miss my Gator and my Moose. I think my chocolate lab moose, the chocolate big burly guy, would have been a
Valerie Milburn: great therapy dog. And, you know, I wish I had pursued training with him to be a therapy dog team. And thus, I was so excited to learn more about therapy dogs. When we sat down yesterday to talk with Max Woodfin, the executive director of Divine Canines. So, Helen, let's share our conversation with Max. Max Woodpen from Divine Canines, welcome to Mental Health, Hope and Recovery.
Max Woodfin: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Valerie Milburn: We sure appreciate it. And, you know, I have had great experiences with animals myself. So what about you? Did you grow up around animals?
Max Woodfin: Yes. I actually grew up on a cotton farm in eastern Arkansas. My father had hunting dogs, but my mother decided that the hunting dogs were too big for me as a little toddler on the farm, so they got beagles for me. I grew up for all of my early life around beagles, and except for the years that I was in college, dogs have always been a part of my life.
Helen Sneed: One of the things that I've been wondering about, Max, is, so what got you interested in pet therapy? It's not the most traditional career choice or whatever. And what started you off?
Max Woodfin: I am a longtime nonprofit executive and had gone into, I guess you would call semi retirement about a dozen years ago and was looking for. For something that would be fun, that I could do largely from home so that I didn't have to worry about office things. And Divine Canines was looking for an executive director, or as I like to joke, they were finally deciding that they needed one person to yell at instead of the board fighting among themselves. So I volunteered to be the person that they could all yell at. And we had a happy relationship ever since.
Valerie Milburn: Well, that's how you got involved. So tell us about what you got involved with. Tell us about Divine Canines. What is your mission?
Max Woodfin: Divine canines was founded 20 years ago. We are in Austin, Texas. We are born and bred here. We only serve in the Central Texas area. And we provide four free therapy dog services for people in need. And that is our mission, to help people who are in need. We define need quite broadly. Of course. We define it in the traditional sense of people who are hospitalized, who are in rehabilitation, who are in various kinds of therapy. But we also broaden the definition and include students who are young readers who may be struggling to read. We define people in need as high school and college students who are in the middle of finals. And we go to a lot of area schools, colleges and universities to provide study breaks for college students. And we are constantly open to hearing people help us further expand the definition of need. Need, because we don't want to get stale. And we always want our volunteers to have new things to do because it keeps them interested.
Valerie Milburn: How about that? Such a broad range of people that you serve and a Great need that is met. How about the number of teams that you have?
Max Woodfin: Right now we have roughly 180 teams. And a team is a dog and a handler or a dog. And sometimes there will be two people in the same family who are both handlers. We have roughly 180 teams that are eligible to be active. A few of them.
Helen Sneed: That's so impressive. I had no idea you.
Valerie Milburn: I know. Me neither.
Helen Sneed: That's a lot of people to administer.
Max Woodfin: Well, they're all great volunteers and they are fairly easy to manage.
Valerie Milburn: No, our particular interest is in mental health. And about how many mental health facilities are you serving?
Max Woodfin: Oh, that is an excellent question. And again, we define mental health a little bit more broadly than most people because we have seen some
Max Woodfin: unusual successes in the mental health arena at places that we serve where we were not actually there to provide mental health help. So I would guess that between 30 and 40 of the places that we serve are some way or another involved with mental health.
Valerie Milburn: That's, that's a wonderful way to look at the people that you serve, focusing on mental health for everyone.
Max Woodfin: Yeah. And just an example, a quick example of what I mean by that. We go to several rehabilitation hospitals and in general those are serving people in physical rehabilitation. People are recovering from injuries, recovering from surgery. And we were visiting, one of our dogs was visiting with a man who had had a severe arm injury from some sort of a mechanical acc. And he was not feeling real good because he couldn't use his right arm. He was a right handed person. And the therapist was actually no, no criticism of the therapist but she was getting a little bit frustrated because they weren't making any progress. Well, our volunteer said, hey, what if we let him toss the ball for Jasper? This was divine canine. Jasper happened to be a golden doodle. And the therapist said, well, let's give it a try. And the man had not been interested in throwing a ball. That was one of the things that the doctor had recommended as a way of healing his shoulder and upper arm. And because Jasper love to play fetch, they put Jasper on a long lead, got out in the hall in the rehab center and the man started throwing the ball and absolutely had a blast. And his outlook improved. He became less focused on feeling sorry for himself and started to cheer up, started looking forward to Jasper's weekly visits and we all considered it a success both physically and mentally.
Valerie Milburn: It's a great example.
Helen Sneed: Well, that's an amazing story because I think what we find, and I'm sure you see probably daily, is it so often depression in Particular can be a direct consequence of some sort of physical illness. I know it's very common, people with heart attacks that afterwards the depression can be just debilitating. So that's a wonderful story. It's kind of bringing tears to my eyes. But while we're on this, can you explain the difference between therapy dogs and service dogs? Because a lot of us are confused by that.
Max Woodfin: Oh, thank you very much for asking, because that's something that we deal with every day. A service dog used to be called seeing Eye dogs, but service dogs are trained to help a person with a disability. So they are trained to be very specific in what they do to help a person who is either blind or visually impaired, a person who may have little or no hearing, or a person with some physical disability that a dog can provide help for. A therapy dog is trained, while trained, highly trained, and trained by a certified trainer. A therapy dog is trained to help people feel better, not to help a person with a specific disability or need. Service dogs can go anywhere that they are not specifically prohibited. Therapy dogs, on the other hand, are not service dogs. And our pooches have to be invited everywhere they go.
Valerie Milburn: I bet they get lots of invitations.
Max Woodfin: They do.
Valerie Milburn: So you said all of your handlers are volunteers, right?
Max Woodfin: That's correct.
Valerie Milburn: Okay, so what are the criteria for your volunteer handlers and for the dogs?
Max Woodfin: The criteria is that the dog has good behavior. That's our prerequisite. We require what's called an American Kennel Club Canine Good citizen certification. That is a standard test that can be given by anyone accredited, any trainer accredited by the akc. It's basic obedience, sit, stay, come when called,
Max Woodfin: greet a friendly stranger. Just basic dog obedience. If a dog can pass the canine good citizen test, then we consider the dog to be a good candidate for our training. Then we have a screening interview where I spend time either on the phone or in person with the dog's owner. And I'm actually looking for some fairly simple things. If a person tells me that their dog is the sweetest in the world and they've never met a sweeter dog, well, that's a pretty good qualification because I want someone who is in love with their dog and willing to spend time with them. And then obviously I want to make sure that the person is willing to make a time commitment because we don't want to invest our time and training and materials into someone who's going to turn into a flake and maybe volunteer once or twice and decide that it's not for them. So we're Looking for a long term investment.
Valerie Milburn: Those are good criteria. Kind of a good citizenship certification for the handlers as well.
Max Woodfin: Oh, yes, yes.
Helen Sneed: Now, we're always. We like to recommend volunteer work as one of the key things for healthy, you know, life and mental health. And so it's good to know that you have this and because, you know, you may get some calls from this podcast. I hope so. Yeah. Can you give us some examples of the positive impact of canine therapy on those with mental health issues? You know, the, the benefits that you've seen a turnaround like you saw with the man throwing the ball.
Max Woodfin: Sure.
Helen Sneed: Things like that, you know, sort of maybe a dramatic breakthrough for a patient. And then my final question is, do you have a sense of what is the underlying cause for the success of people, working people, just interacting with animals? Do you think it's the connection? I'm just so curious, because you, you've seen it, I'm sure. Well, maybe thousands of times by now.
Max Woodfin: Let me give you what has become our classic example of the turnaround. Pre Covid, we were partnering with what was then called Fort Hood. It's now Fort Cavazos. It's the largest military installation in the United states. It's about 50 miles from our base in Austin near Killeen, Texas. And, and we were visiting with soldiers who were returning from overseas assignments. They selected, they self selected. They let the counselors, the therapists know if they wanted to visit with dogs. So we were going into a fairly friendly audience. But one day, and the visits were largely outdoors because they found that the soldiers, the returning soldiers, were more relaxed when we could meet with them outdoors. So we were on a spring day. It was getting a little bit warm. We were our volunteers, and the dogs and the people they were visiting with were kind of clustered under trees and in the shade of buildings. And one of the counselors said to one of our veteran volunteers, hey, you see that soldier sitting over by himself? He has been back from wherever it was overseas, I don't remember where, and he's just not talking. But he wanted to come today. He wanted to be out here. So if you could just go sit with him for a while, we would appreciate it. So our volunteer and her dog went over, sat by the soldier. He didn't say a word. And the volunteer sort of urged her dog, who happened to be named Bella, urged Bella to get a little bit closer to the soldier. And he put his hand out, started scratching Bella on top of the head and then moved under Bella's chin. And Bella would accept anything from Anyone. She was just a wonderful, divine canine therapy dog. So Bella started getting a little bit closer and the volunteer started asking open ended questions. And that's one of the things that we train our volunteers to do. We don't ask specific questions,
Max Woodfin: well, what's wrong with you? Or why are you here? We just ask questions about, have you had dogs? Do you enjoy being around dogs? Oh, hey, are you a Dallas Cowboys fan? Or oh no, you're a Houston Texans fan? Or just things to try to stimulate conversation. And after a few minutes, the soldier started responding and started asking questions about Bella. And very good questions. Well, what kind of diet is Bella on? Because her coat is really beautiful. And other questions that gave the volunteer a very strong hint that this guy had had dogs in his life before. So Bella and her volunteer and the soldier had about a 30 minute discussion and it came time for everyone to leave. The counselor walked our volunteer back to her car and said, you know, I was not really honest with you. I maybe should have told you. That soldier has not spoken a word since he got back to Fort Hood. And he, for the first time he talked to Bella. Didn't really talk a whole lot to the volunteer because the questions were all oriented around Bella. But that's kind of our classic of a, a rather immediate impact on someone's life.
Helen Sneed: It's extraordinary and very, very moving, very to see, to see that again that, that, that you could have such as you say, an immediate response from someone who was so, I'm sure, in such pain and in such need and that, you know, that it was Bella, that, and a really trained volunteer that knew how to, you know, how to approach him. But, well, that's, that's the kind of thing that we have been researching and are so interested in hearing, you know, real life accounts of these things because, you know, the, they've showing now this stuff about the brain and how we respond to animals and to touch and whatever, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. But do you, do you have a sense of what you think the underlying causes for say this, this, this man to have responded so strongly to a dog?
Max Woodfin: I think, Helen, that it's, it's a good example of the wonderful, mysterious relationship that people have with dogs. But I can tell you from experience that there is something magic about the relationship between people and animals. And it can be seen many times, most vividly when someone is hurting, whether it's a physical herd, whether it's a mental herd, whether it's some sort of spiritual thing going on in their life. A dog is forgiving. A dog is not going to judge, particularly a therapy dog, because we don't have aggressive animals in our pack. The dog is going to accept pets and cuddles and nonsensical conversation, and the dog is going to think that's the greatest thing that's happened because someone is paying attention to her. So I, I cannot explain it. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I am thoroughly convinced that there is a magical, mystical, mysterious connection between humans and animals. And we are fortunate enough to be in a position to offer that kind of, of service with our therapy animals.
Valerie Milburn: And it's a wonderful service, that unconditional love and admiration that a dog gives. There's a saying, if only I could be the person my dog believes I am.
Max Woodfin: Oh, yeah. I've got a coaster right here by my phone that says, because they love.
Valerie Milburn: Us and worship us.
Max Woodfin: Absolutely.
Helen Sneed: What about your work in canine therapy gives you hope for an individual's chances for recovering from mental health problems?
Max Woodfin: We can see on an individual basis the idea of hope that providing a free service and a lovely dog to someone who is in
Max Woodfin: need can brighten their day. Even if it's just a five minute conversation in the waiting room at a hospital while waiting on a family member to come out of surgery. We witness every day a little glimmer in people's eyes as they see dogs. And sometimes, I shouldn't say just a little glimmer. I get to go on our visits anytime I want to, obviously. And to follow a dog around in any kind of a setting is an amazing experience because you just see smiles, you see people start laughing or start grinning. You see children asking their teacher if they can break out of the line that's walking to the cafeteria or the library. I see that dogs provide relief. They provide a stress break. They provide a little bit of happiness and hope no matter what the situation is. But we can brighten lives. And I think there's a great deal of value in helping people one at a time.
Valerie Milburn: Absolutely. Thank you for making those amazing experiences happen and for brightening those lives one at a time, because that's how we do it. And thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences and time with us today. This has been really uplifting and interior. The story about the soldier just really, really touched me and moved me and just brought home exactly how powerful what you're doing is. And thank you so much for making that happen.
Max Woodfin: Of course.
Helen Sneed: And thank you for what you're doing for, I don't know countless people. And I think the point that I find so true in what you said about Hope is that, you know, we can't always go in and be messianic and, you know, and, and, and fix the whole situation. But when I, Val and I both have experience with this. When you are feeling so down or so burdened, just a brief respite can make all the difference in the world. And that's what you're doing.
Max Woodfin: Yes.
Helen Sneed: So thank you. Thank you from both of us.
Max Woodfin: Well, thanks to our volunteers. They are the ones that are doing the real work.
Valerie Milburn: Absolutely.
Helen Sneed: Sierra, let's get moving. Valerie, I enjoyed our conversation with Max yesterday and I loved what you shared about your two labs. Charles de Gaulle said, the better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs. I think that says it all. Now, my own childhood involved. Well, the involvement with animals was extremely rich and varied. Out in the country we had all kinds of animals. Cows, goats, sheep, dogs, cats, tiny orphan rabbits we fed with a baby doll bottle and the occasional rattlesnake, which we shunned. But the pinnacle was my horse, Sheba. I remember vividly what caring for a horse and riding meant to me as a depressed child. Oh, I loved her. Sheba was pure white and part Arabian, so she loved to jump over anything. So riding her through the hills around Austin
Helen Sneed: was the greatest freedom I had ever known. Probably the first grooming and feeding her, just patting her on the neck brought me pride and joy. I can remember telling everyone that Sheba was my best friend and out in the hills, away from people, I told her all my secrets, hopes, and fears. Now, Alan Hamilton has this beautiful definition I want to read. He said, I call my horses divine mirrors, for they reflect back the emotions you put in. If you put in love and respect and kindness and curiosity, the horse will return that. So with my love of horses, I was enthralled by our conversation yesterday with Rebecca Hubbard of Pecan Creek Ranch, all about equine therapy. So let's listen to Rebecca now. Rebecca of Pecan Creek Ranch, Salado, Texas. Welcome to mental health hope and recovery. Now, given my passion for horses since early childhood and my experience with depression and trauma since early childhood, I have to say that I wish I had met you many, many years ago. But you're here with us today, so let's begin. Okay. First off, tell us about your own relationship with animals. Did you grow up with them? And what about horses? When did you first develop a relationship with horses?
Speaker A: I think the day they brought me home from the hospital. We had a dog and a cat, and I've had relationships with them, I guess, since the day I came home. And horses pretty much not too far after that. So I've known animals my whole life, and I've had a very deep connection with them and kinship with them my whole life. But it really changed in 2013 when I began learning natural lifemanship because I started to learn how to really listen to animals, which helped me learn how to listen to people even better. Right. Because animals can be very subtle communicators. And so when I started asking animals for consent for things like consent for touch, consent for asking them to take medication, my understanding about them changed and my relationships with them changed. Animals have a very deep influence on my life. I have animals at home, and then I work with the animals we have at the Concrete Ranch. We have nine horses, one therapy cat and two therapy dogs and a therapy goat in training.
Valerie Milburn: Wow, that's so interesting. Asking for consent to be touched and consent to take medication. And what did you call that when.
Speaker A: You started learning natural lifemanship?
Valerie Milburn: Natural lifemanship. Well, that kind of leads me into the next thing I wanted to talk about, about becoming a therapist. What about you becoming a therapist? Did that have anything to do with your seeking that next direction in your career?
Speaker A: A really good question. Actually. Being a therapist was my second career. I was a science teacher before that, and I saw all the problems that my students were having and really Wanted to be able to help them with those things. And so I went back to school, and that was 30 years ago. I've been a therapist 30 years. And so that's really why I became a therapist. I was asked for a long time if I was interested in working with horses in the therapeutic process. But I couldn't find a model of treatment that spoke to me about that. I really wanted to have a model that helped me understand how horses and people work together. I have a deep belief that animals are not tools. They're not something that we use to feel better, that they are actual sentient beings. And they interact with us in this very independent way. Right. It's not that we are projecting onto them our thoughts and feelings. That's not how we heal. I don't believe we heal at the expense of another. And so I couldn't find a treatment model that saw horses in this kind of way, that I see them.
Helen Sneed: More in terms of a partnership.
Speaker A: Very much a partnership. Very much that. You know, if you think about it like this, most people who interact with horses interact from a position of control and domination.
Speaker A: Right. They call it leadership and horsemanship. And that's the way I grew up. I grew up with horses, and I was taught to be the leader of the horse. And even though I might have been, and I'll put it in quotes, kind, I was still controlling, and I still was interacting with them in ways that were unhealthy. So if I were to teach humans that kind of relationships skill, it would be abusive. I'd be teaching people to be abusive in their relationships. And so I couldn't find a model of treatment that really helped see horses in a different way until I learned natural lifemanship, which basically says that we don't heal at the expense of another, that we have principles of relating with each other. Some of those principles are like Little Cruz here, who's sitting in my lap. She keeps asking for me to connect with her because I'm connected with you. And so she keeps laying her head on me. You see her gazing at me. She's using very little pressure to communicate to me. Now, that was an increase in pressure where she bumped my hand and asked me to touch her. And so what we teach people is how do we start to ask for things in a healthy way? What do we do when we're getting ignored?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. That makes me think about, when did you first see that horses could specifically be helpful in the healing of those with the mental health condition?
Speaker A: Yeah. And could really form a partnership with horses. To help people overcome relationship issues, relationship to themselves and relationship to others. Right. I think a lot of our mental health problems come from how we have been related to. And then we internalize those ways of being, and then we interact with others in ourselves also in that way. And horses can really help us learn how to change that because they are in this present moment and the way we interact with them, however it is, they will respond to that. If I change it, they'll respond to that. So every time I change something with a horse, they respond to that change. What allows me to see what will happen when I change that behavior or even that thought process, because horses can. They're so attuned to their own bodies that when we think something that changes our body. Right. And they pick up on that change in our body. And so even if I just change something in a thinking way, they will respond.
Helen Sneed: This is amazing. Because there's a whole. It just sounds like there's. That. That is ultimately you're looking for a sense of equality between the. The animal and the person and the give and the take and all that. This is. This is amazing. I have, I have a question. I have won about this. When you first began, was equine therapy considered a legitimate form of therapy? I mean, has it, has it evolved, you know, in terms of, you know, the field, they're naysayers that go, oh, you must be joking, you know, that kind of thing. But how has it evolved over the course of your career?
Speaker A: It was when I began, I would say, working with autism and physical disabilities. It was considered a really good treatment for those things, but not mental health when I started. Even now, even though I've been doing this for a long time, 11 years, people still think it's weird. And professionals specifically will only make referrals to equine assisted psychotherapy when it's a last resort. And that's a shame because we can work with people very early on in a problem and get really good results and usually quicker than office therapy, because we're actually out there doing something that changes the pathways in the brain, so it changes faster through doing. Right. The brain. So for taking action instead of just talking about it right now, you can change pathways in your brain through talking, through thinking. It's just a longer process.
Valerie Milburn: So you're talking about the incredible benefits that can be achieved. And specifically, can you talk about those, for example, improved self esteem or more motivation back into talk therapy in the office. Can
Valerie Milburn: you name some of those benefits?
Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, the benefits that I see is you're able to regulate your nervous system a lot better. Right. And when you are able to regulate your nervous system easier than other things in your life are going to become easier. Right.
Helen Sneed: We know this firsthand.
Valerie Milburn: We know all about the importance of emotional regulation.
Speaker A: Yes, yes. And so we work a lot on understanding your nervous system, how to communicate with it, how to soothe it. Right. So that's one of the big benefits is really being able to work with your nervous system. I think the other things are learning how to be in a healthy relationship. Right. You're learning how to be in a healthy relationship with yourself. You're learning how to talk to yourself, you're learning how to take care of yourself. You're learning how to relate to another being. A lot of people have been hurt by people and so they're really nervous and scared about interacting with people. But when it comes to animals, our horses, our cats, our dogs, people have much more ease in interacting. And so they get to practice those skills without feeling so afraid and worried all the time. Right. So you get a chance to really work on that trust. Those are the huge changes that I see that then lead to things like increased self esteem, increased ability to control my behavior, increased ability to connect with others, increased ability to take better care of myself, which leads to symptom reduction and all these kinds of things.
Helen Sneed: Now, given what you just said.
Speaker A: I.
Helen Sneed: Know that you are focused on trauma in a lot of your work. And again, I'm someone that has complex ptsd, so I was really taken with that. And you also just mentioned that it affects the body. And of course, trauma is in the central nervous system, so it's pretty hard to work with it at times. But with the treatment methods that you use, what illnesses respond to the. You say equine therapy. I've been saying it wrong. Equine therapy is things like depression, anxiety, ptsd, these things that come out of trauma. What do you find responding the most?
Speaker A: Well, I think all of those respond very well to this mode of treatment. Ptsd, anxiety, depression, trust issues, relationship issues. Right.
Helen Sneed: I guess for me, as, as a novice, knowing nothing about it, really, I think the gist of all of this is, in your opinion, what causes the.
Speaker A: Healing so deep down at the, at the bedrock of it? Yes, I would say it's relationship. Right.
Helen Sneed: Okay.
Speaker A: It is being. So we work in teams, so two people, and then the person gets to pick a horse from our herd. That's their relationship horse. Usually we have a therapy dog with us. Now we have a therapy coat goat, and often a Cat, all of these beings are out in this pasture with us. Sometimes all the other horses come, and they will stand around and support the person who's doing the work. So you have this community of support. You have these regulated nervous systems that are holding you and holding space for you. And you have all of these relationships. Right. That are helping you to know that you're important. And a lot of people come to us. That's the first thing they say is, I don't feel like I matter. This trauma makes us feel like we're worthless. Right. It takes away this sense of being that that's important in the world. And you can look around and you can see in that moment, you've got all of these beings here for you. And that's a life that's life changing when it happens over and over again. Right. That relationship and being held and being cared for and being listened to, I think is the bedrock for all change. Because connection is so important. We need to be together in each other's presence.
Helen Sneed: You know, Rebecca, we just. We just did some research on this and exactly what you're saying, that in that the brain requires us to be with other people, and. And if we're not, you know, there can be h*** to.
Speaker A: To pay. Yeah.
Helen Sneed: Because we are hardwired
Helen Sneed: to be with others.
Valerie Milburn: We did two episodes on the loneliness epidemic, and what Helen's talking about is the research we did for that and the importance of connection in our lives and the incredible detrimental effect of loneliness and disconnection and exactly what you're talking about. And I have been really struggling in my life lately. And when you talked about just now, that visual of being in a field surrounded by horses, my body just relaxed just at that vision of standing in your field surrounded by those horses. I just went, oh, yeah. I could just visualize that and feel it, feel better.
Helen Sneed: It sounds like paradise, you know.
Valerie Milburn: Really does.
Helen Sneed: Well, it sounds to me like the beginning of trust. The beginning of trust to think that they are there for you.
Speaker A: We can't rule out here is that we're not meeting inside, we're meeting outside. And so this connection that we have between each other as humans but the natural world is also super important. We have these really old trees on our property, and they give so much strength and wisdom. It is amazing how when you just stand by them, that you can feel rooted and connected. And sometimes we'll just take a client and sit at their base. Because these trees are so big, it takes six adults linking hands to get around them.
Helen Sneed: Oh, gosh, how old they are.
Speaker A: So they've been here a long, long time. And we'll sit at their base and we'll have the horses come over. And I had a client describe it as being held, like being held by another person, but is too afraid to be held by people. Right. That can be held by this other being. I guess I have, you know, I think of trees as they're living beings too. And so we have all of this that we need to be connecting with for our own mental health. This is important for our survival as a species.
Helen Sneed: You do keep talking about people are taking action. Yes, they're going to get, they may get on the horse, they may saddle, but, but then you're going out into a field and are you going under, under a beautiful tree or whatever? And it's, you know, that sitting in an office, you know, talking or not talking, whatever the case may be, that was something that I needed to be sort of like shot out of a cannon or something and get, get back again into action, movement, even, you know, just of the body.
Valerie Milburn: You know, I'm thinking about sitting under the tree also say with a family member and the power that could bring. And that's the next thing I wanted to ask you about. When or if do you involve family members in this, the therapy?
Speaker A: Yes. Well, if you're a kiddo, your family is involved all the time, but if you're an adult, you get a choice about that. But we love for people to bring their families, their spouses, their significant others out to treatment if they find that that would be helpful to them, we think it's extremely helpful. Right. People are real hesitant, we find, to bring others into treatment for them and maybe they're worried about what they'll say or how they'. One of the things I think that tempers that a little bit is that people get really excited about sharing their horse friend with someone else.
Helen Sneed: Here's a really critical question from me, the horse woman. I have visited your website several times because you do post the pictures of your magnificent horses. So I have scrolled and scrolled through the horses. I won't tell you which one I've chosen. But what do you look for for when you are finding a horse for your kind of work? What, what, what, what are you looking for?
Speaker A: Okay, I want, I'll answer that. Who's your favorite on our website?
Helen Sneed: I can't remember the, the name. It's the one that, that is, that's, that's white with a little, with a little black underneath.
Speaker A: Oh, Jetta. She's A flea bitten gray. Yeah, she's beautiful. Yes.
Helen Sneed: I had a white Arabian mare, and so I'm kind of biased to the white horses because I just love it. Anyway, I'll take any. Any of them, darling. Any of them.
Speaker A: So I'll talk to you about that from my perspective. Like, if I was out looking for another horse for our herd, what kind of horse would I look for? My business partner might look for something very different. I know we're pretty similar, but, you know, I'll just put that out there just in case she might. I would look for a horse that I can develop a relationship with, that I
Speaker A: can develop a trusting relationship with. Okay. Because if that horse can trust me and we can develop a relationship, then we can work through stuff. We're not looking for a horse who's never had problems. A healthy relationship cannot have perfection in it. Okay? It just. Perfection kills relationships. So I would just look for a horse that I could develop a relationship with. They can have problems, they can have aggression problems, they can dissociate, they can have fear problems. As long as I feel like I can work with them, then I'm willing to take them into our program.
Valerie Milburn: And you mentioned earlier about changing pathways in the brain. Can you talk a little bit more about how equine therapy does that can help develop those new pathways, more positive pathways?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So there are lots of different ways. One of the things that we do always is we start with regulation and we regulate, try to help people learn how to regulate their bodies. And we regulate through movement. Sometimes we regulate through drumming or other sounds because some people are sensitive to drumming, but we use big bass drums. The horses love them. They love the way that they do. Yes, they will come and stand around you. They love the rhythm, but they also love the resonance, that deep resonance over their bodies. And so that's the first thing we do is we try to help people learn how to regulate their bodies. We do the same thing every time with a specific client so that their bodies start to feel safe. We greet them, for instance, we greet them in the parking lot. Usually our therapy dog is the first one out there to say hello. Now the little therapy goat has decided she wants to say hello too. So they're usually out there. We start there and we start understanding how that client came to us in that moment. Because every moment's different. Every session is different. Right. So maybe they are feeling dysregulated from traffic or something that's going on internally. Then we start to regulate them from that moment as we Walk out into the herd. And so we do a lot of movement, a lot of walking forward, which also changes your pathways in your brain. And then the work we do with the horses actually changes those pathways. So you get to practice making requests. So one of the things that I think is a very basic thing is somebody says, I want my horse's attention. Well, how are you going to get that? Well, people often just wish it. I just wish you would come over here. Well, that's a, that's a problem in your life, isn't it? If you just are waiting for people to mind read and know what you want and come over. So you've got to ask for it. Well, when, the minute you start asking for it, what starts happening? All of the worries that you have, all the things that start attacking your brain starts attacking you. Oh, you shouldn't be asking for that. That's not nice. You're interrupting him, he's eating. You need to leave him alone. You're not really that important. Why would you be asking anybody for anything? You see how the thought processes start and we can start to recognize that and start to change that just by doing something different in the moment. And it's the doing something different every time that's going to change the pathway. And so when you're developing a new pathway, it's like a lightly traced line in the sand. Right. It's harder to stay on it until you deepen it by going over it and over it every time. And so it's through doing the different things that might be regulating your body. It might be changing that thought process, that might be changing the way you're standing, that might be increasing your body energy and asking anyway, even though your brain's telling you you're not worthy of asking. Right. All of these things will shift your nervous system and the pathways and your brain will change over time.
Helen Sneed: Well, we're for that because it's. When I first heard about it, I was very cynical, you know, I was very sick at the time and I just thought, oh yeah, I'm going to really create new, new brain, new pathways in my brain. I call them those old railroad tracks, that rusty old railroad tracks that you just go down, you know.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Helen Sneed: And then of course, it was probably the central thing for my recovery. Now, I guess what is our most far reaching question? And that is what gives you hope today for people who are struggling with mental health challenges?
Speaker A: I think a lot of things for me, give hope. One is every day it seems like we're learning something new about how our bodies work and how our brains work. When I started As a therapist 30 years ago, we didn't understand the things we know now about our nervous system, about the polyvagal nerve, about
Speaker A: any of this stuff, right? And it was all about changing the way you think or behavior modification, really. Right. Those are the things that we learned. So we're learning new things every day which are changing the way that we provide treatment. So I think that's super important. I think understanding connection and how our life experiences actually impact our nervous systems and how we develop as people is hugely important because we used to think that it was just a weakness in a person's way of being that made them sick, right? Or their families made them sick. Right? And so we understand now it is the life experiences. It is the way that our bodies interact with that life experience. It is our attachment style. It is how our parents and caregivers supported us. Right. Or didn't. Right? All of these things we're learning about. Now we know how, if we didn't have them, how do we repair that? We're understanding that a lot better. Right? We're understanding the importance and the power of connection that I think in the future, things are just. It's going to look so vastly different than what it has looked like for, you know, many years.
Helen Sneed: This is. This. These are very uplifting words and also very educating. I think that's what we are always saying. If you want to fight, you know, your mental illness, be well educated, understand what's going on with you. And you just have been an encyclopedia today of knowledge. And I just want to say that Valerie and I are so grateful for your time and your expertise. And you are very eloquent, by the way. And the information, as you keep saying, information that you have given us and our listeners is invaluable, believe me. So we are incredibly grateful that you joined us, and we would love to have you back to hear more, but you have to bring me a horse. So thank you very much. Rebecca, come on out.
Speaker A: We'd love to have both of you out.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, I would.
Helen Sneed: I would love it. I would just. I just want to go and hang out with the horses and ask them if I can touch their noses, you know, that kind of thing, and be.
Valerie Milburn: Surrounded by your herd. Thank you so much.
Helen Sneed: Now we'll bring our topic to a close. We want to give tremendous thanks to Max and Rebecca for the generosity, compassion, and wisdom that they've given us. Above all else, their work and its impact are inspirational. We also want to give Special recognition to the brilliant animals they train and work with. And here are the beautiful words of Anatole France. Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened. Now, Valerie, will you lead us in a mindfulness exercise?
Valerie Milburn: I will. Yes. We will close today's episode in our traditional way with a mindfulness exercise. What is mindfulness? I always give a definition. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts and bodily sensations without judgment. Today's mindfulness exercise is called Savoring Life Through Photography. And I thought of this because of all the wonderful photos I have taken of my pets over the years. And you know, many of us take photos on our phones so often it is almost mindless. How about giving the opposite a try? Taking mindful photos. Because research shows that photography, mindful photography allows us to express creativity and savor life through our photography. So let's give it a try. Let's get mindful. Close your eyes if you can. Settle in and breathe as always. Let's begin with a few diaphragmatic breaths. Whether your eyes are open or closed, let's steady our breathing with two diaphragmatic breaths. When you do this on your own, take as many breaths as you need to become calm and centered. If you're driving or walking, please adapt this exercise in a way that is safe for your environment. Let's breathe.
Valerie Milburn: Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach as you inhale. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do so. Forcefully exhaling. Drop your shoulders again. Inhale through your nose, expanding that balloon in your stomach. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in. Pull your stomach all the way in. Keep this slow, steady breath going. Set a goal for the next week to take photos of positive things in your everyday life. Commit to this goal. What would these positive things in your photos be? The simple pleasures of life. Like a cup of coffee, A beautiful sky? Could it be something that is creative and meaningful to you? Choose something to take a photo of. Visualize taking in everything in the scene you are photographing and taking the best photo that you can. Is your photograph a vista or a close up? What do you want to capture your image? Visualize your photo. Think about sharing this photo with a person, not sharing it on social media. Is there someone you can share this photo with? One on one in person? Maybe a friend, Family member, neighbor? Co worker? Visualize sharing your photo. Feel the connection as the two of you view and share about your photo. Set a goal. Remember your goal to take that photo this week. If there's not an opportunity this week to share in person, you can send a personal email with one of your photos to someone you care about describing how the photo is meaningful to you. Certain you will get a positive response. If your eyes are closed, please open them and return your gaze to the room. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me. Before we close, Helen, I want to mention again a new favorite podcast of ours. It's called the Blue Sky Podcast. And every week Blue sky features interesting and inspiring people working on some of the world's toughest challenges. And it talks about how these people are approaching these challenges with an infectious sense of hope and optimism. And this podcast is hosted by the founder of the Optimism Institute, Bill Burt. And Bill launched this initiative to inspire and uplift people with a vision of our future that's far more positive than most of what we see and hear in the media. And Blue sky features conversations with guests on a wide range
Valerie Milburn: of topics, and the show's listeners leave each episode feeling better about the world and about our collective future. And I do indeed feel uplifted and optimistic after listening to these episodes. And Blue sky gets its name from the meditation prompt that reminds us that there is always blue sky above, and sometimes you just have to get your head above the clouds to see it. So if you want to get your head above those clouds, check out the Blue Sky Podcast from the Optimism Institute. It's available wherever you get your podcasts.
Helen Sneed: Well, this brings our episode to a close, but we're left with such delightful, upbeat and hopeful revelations from Max and Rebecca. Valerie and I are grateful to them and to you, our listeners, for joining us in a celebration of the healing power of animals. Next time, you will want to hear the amazing story of Kalen, who will tell of her life with an eating disorder, how it impacted her through years of struggle and her triumph over anorexia nervosa. With courage and candor, Kaylyn will reveal the journey she's made and its wondrous outcome of a life in recovery. Until then, I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.