This is the first of an unprecedented two-part series. Valerie and Helen dig deep into the similarities, differences, and clashes between the genders as they deal with mental health challenges. In this episode, they begin with Men and Mental Health. As they explore the male response to symptoms, treatment, and relationships, some surprising and often disconcerting differences come to light. For there is a paucity of research about men and mental illness. They often wage a very different battle for recovery than women do. Helen and Valerie are fortunate to have a featured guest, Rob Dye, tell his remarkable story of struggle and recovery, and explain much about the often different male reactions to psychiatric illnesses and available treatment. The episode is an eye-opener for men and women. Please join in. This episode will be followed by Women and Mental Health. Also not to be missed.
Find Helen and Valerie online Mental Health Hope and Recovery.com
Join Helen and Valerie on Facebook
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Men and Mental Health: The Facts and a Personal Perspective
Episode 36
Helen Sneed: Welcome to Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals. But we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery.
Valerie Milburn: So can you this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.
Helen Sneed: Foreign.
Valerie Milburn: Welcome all. Before we roll this episode, two things to share the first one you have heard before this podcast, Mental Health, Hope and Recovery, has been honored with two Signal Awards. Those are the National Podcasting Industry Awards. We won both a Bronze and the Listener's Choice Award in our category. Helen and I wanted to mention this again because the episode that won Parenting Skills for Symptomatic Parents has been getting such strong feedback for the powerful resource it is. The episode is filled with strategies and skills and with inspiration and hope. The episode offers this support not only for those who are parenting their own children while struggling with their mental health, but also for those who are caregivers. For a parent with a mental health condition, you know we're not alone in our struggles. Tune in to our award winning episode. It's episode 23, parenting skills for Symptomatic parents. Tune in and connect. And while we were in New York at the Signal Awards celebration, Helen and I met lots of other podcasters. And in the process, we have discovered a few new favorite podcasts. One we want to share is called Two Lives. On each episode of Two Lives, you'll hear about someone who faced darkness and how that moment transformed them. The title comes from the quote, we all have two lives. The second one begins the moment we realize we have only one. Helen and I both connect with that quote and enjoy the podcast. Check out Two Lives on your favorite podcast app or listen at 2Lives.org that's the numeral22lives.org now here's episode 36 of Mental Health Hope and Recovery. Welcome to episode 36, Men and Mental Health. You know, a mental health condition does not discriminate between gender, age, race or socioeconomic status. Anyone can get a mental health condition. But factors such as these do influence the course of a mental health condition. And we're going to look at one of these today. Gender. Today's topic is men and mental health and we will follow up with an episode on women's mental health.
Valerie Milburn: So here's our roadmap for today. We're going to have a two part episode. We will start with Helen and I looking at some statistics, background research and, and then we'll follow up with what will be the highlight of the episode because we know the power of the story and we have a guest here to share his story. Rob Dye is with us today. And Rob, I'm going to formally introduce you when you tell your story in a bit. But right now I want to welcome you. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker A: Thank you. Valerie, it's a pleasure to reunite with you. You were one of the first people I saw on my recent journey, Nami, I think five or six years ago. So it's good to be back. And Helen, it's good to meet you today.
Helen Sneed: Well, we're delighted that you're here. That's an understatement.
Valerie Milburn: Yes.
Helen Sneed: So the first half of what we're going to do today is to look at the background of men and mental health. The most common illnesses for males, symptoms, treatment methods, the male response to treatment methods and relationships. So here's where we decided to begin. As researchers and doctors investigate men's mental health, their findings affect men's lives at the very deepest level. Now here are the latest findings. This is from the TH Chan School of Public Health at Harvard, Dr. Brandon Yon. And this is so hot off the presses that it Literally was released to the public only a couple of weeks ago. So here's what they found. American men have developed higher mortality rates, which of course is a cause for great concern. The life expectancy gap in the United States is 73 years for men and 79 years for women. This current six year gap is the widest since 1996. So this is something that they are really concerned about. The lowered rate is based on data that explains why there's a widening gap by gender as well as the overall drop in life expectancy. Now, baseline mortality factors for men have always been genetic and chronic diseases, but these are no longer the sole reasons. As they have learned, mental health, the opioid epidemic and suicide are now considered major factors. So with these changes, men who ignore their mental health do so at their peril. As Bryce Spencer Jones said, men receive their first flowers at their funeral. So how do we delay this? Well, as we've said, men's mental health in all respects is this immense subject where there's a deficiency in research that only now is being rectified. Well, we had to start somewhere. So most of our discussion today is based on binary research, men and women in the traditional definitions. And this research can seem so limited to us today. We are committed to inclusion of underserved communities, the lgbtq, gender identity, people of color, women veterans. Especially when new research shows that the mental health challenges in these groups can be far more severe, wide reaching and destructive. Now, we'll explore this alarming phenomenon in future episodes. The subject though, is just too vast to do it justice today. So please bear with us. We are starting from scratch. Challenged mental health is now considered an epidemic with male adolescents and young male adults. Now, fortunately, this age group is receiving more attention in the scientific community and is one we've investigated in previous episodes. So for this episode we'll focus on mature men because that is where consequences of childhood trauma and adolescent illness can lead to severe symptoms, high risk behavior and mental health challenges for decades after the fact that.
Valerie Milburn: So looking at male mental health this episode and eventually different aspects and women's mental health next episode has me look at some comparisons right now between men and women. So in general, women are more likely to experience mental health conditions than men and are much more likely to have co occurring mental health disorders than men. Women have a significantly higher frequency of depression and anxiety adulthood, while men have a larger prevalence of substance use disorders and antisocial behaviors. Gender and mental health do appear to be connected, but their relationship is really complicated. Violence,
Valerie Milburn: socioeconomic problems and socialization tend to impact men and women in different ways and could be a large reason why we see these gender differences in mental health in the first place. This is sobering. Women are also more likely to attempt suicide. However, men are more than three and a half times more likely to die from suicide than women. And this may be because men choose more lethal weapons such as firearms. And men account for nearly 75% of of all suicides.
Helen Sneed: I had no idea that it was that high, and this is really shocking, so I'm glad we're talking about this today.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, as always, talking about mental health in general is one of the most effective ways to break down the stigma, and that's why we do what we do.
Helen Sneed: I would like to tell what the six most common illnesses are for men. And this is from the Newport Institute. Number one, depression. Six million men annually. A lot of them also don't get a diagnosis and almost half think they can handle it on their own. Number two, anxiety. Three million men panic disorder, ocd, generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety and phobias. In men, anxiety often leads to a diagnosis of substance use disorder and adhd. So here we see again misdiagnosis. Number three, substance use disorder. Young men are more likely to abuse drugs. Men are two times more likely to binge drink than women. Men have higher rates of alcohol deaths and hospitalizations. And drinking, though, ironically, is more socially acceptable for men. And it is a way to mask other symptoms. Number four, PTSD. 60% of all men experience at least one trauma in their lives. Now this is also Diagnosis is underreported and it's more common in women as men are prone to suffer in silence and to disregard the symptoms as best they can. 5. Bipolar disorder. 1.2 million men per year. This also is underdiagnosed because the symptoms are written off often as typical male behavior. And finally, psychosis and schizophrenia. There are 3.5 million people diagnosed a year. 90% of people diagnosed by age 30 are men.
Valerie Milburn: And a quick look at symptoms. Symptoms of mental disorders in men. Anger, irritability and aggressiveness. And anger is one of the more common symptoms of mental illness in men, much more common in men than in women. And this can lead to severe and dangerous symptoms. Often can involve guns, domestic violence and abuse. Other symptoms in men are noticeable changes in mood, energy level, appetite. Also difficulty in sleeping or sleeping, too much difficulty concentrating, feeling restless or on edge, increased worry, feeling stressful, and as Helen mentioned, misuse of alcohol, drugs or both. And that statistic for men is as high as 50%. That CO occurring, misuse of alcohol, drugs. With the mental health condition.
Helen Sneed: Well, I guess what we came to see, and if we're a little redundant, please forgive us, but so much of men's reactions to mental health symptoms are based on society's definitions and expectations of what behaviors and traits are masculine. Men are expected to show few emotions, no vulnerability, and to be action oriented. And many male emotions come out expressed as anger because that's considered an exceptional male emotion. And men can be more isolated and they must find their own solution to their problems. They cultivate fewer close relationships. In many instances, it said that shame is the most unacceptable emotion to men. Well, the shame and stigma of mental illness must be intolerable. Fear of judgment and being perceived as weak in the eyes of others. Then there's trauma. One deeply difficult source of psychiatric illness is the response of the adult man to childhood abuse. And
Helen Sneed: And with triggers such as childhood neglect and trauma, the male response can be particularly confused, distressing and extreme. The national center for Victims of Crime reports that statistics on children are difficult to acquire because they're often not reported. But here are the child sexual abuse statistics as best they can cite them. One in five girls and one in 20 boys are victims of childhood sexual abuse. 20% of children are sexually abused before the age of eight. The early abuse's impact on the developing brain can be severe and a lifelong problem. And 30% of the sexually abused population is male. But still, the National Institute of Health reported quite recently treatment research focusing on male victims is virtually non existent compared to female victims.
Valerie Milburn: Men are much less likely to seek treatment for mental health conditions than women are. And this is due to social norms, a reluctance to talk about mental health issues and to downplaying their symptoms. And there are some key findings from research that are really interesting. One research study did a large sample polling and nearly 80% of the men polled had suffered with common mental health symptoms such as anxiety, stress or depression. Half half of those polled had never spoken to anyone about their mental health. Now of those who had never spoken about their mental health, 30% said they had not spoken about it because they were, quote, too embarrassed to speak about it, while 20% said they there was a negative stigma on the issue. In that poll, 40% of the men polled said it would take thoughts of suicide or self harm to compel them to seek professional help.
Helen Sneed: And I that is pretty sad. Yeah, that's kind of heartbreaking.
Valerie Milburn: I really thought about that and you know, and I mentioned a little while ago, you know, one of the reasons we do this podcast is because we want to promote making it be okay to talk about a mental health condition. And. And it's just so important. And our research showed us over and over again that one of the real detriments to seeking treatment is just that inability to open up and talk. And that came up again and again. And talking about stigma here leads me to the next area I wanted to talk about, because the definition of stigma is a set of negative and often unfair beliefs that a society or group of people have about something. And what I wanted to talk about here is one of those unfair beliefs that research shows is based on biases of society and the media is about mental illness and violence. And that's often associated more with men than women. And here's the truth about mental illness and violence. A person with a mental illness is more likely to be the victim of violence than the perpetrator of violence. And I have a. I just want.
Helen Sneed: To ask you to say that again.
Valerie Milburn: A person with a mental illness is more likely to be the victim of violence than. Than the perpetrator of violence. And I have a paragraph from the national alliance on Mental Illness that I want to read verbatim. And here it goes. The overwhelming majority of people with mental illness are not violent. Most people with mental health conditions will never become violent. And mental illness does not cause most gun violence. In fact, studies show that mental illness contributes to only about 4% of all violence. And the contribution to gun violence is even lower. Research shows an increased risk of gun violence comes from a history of violence, including domestic violence, use of alcohol or illegal drugs, being young and male, or a personal history of physical or sexual abuse or trauma. Mental illness alone is not a predictor of violence.
Helen Sneed: This is so contradictory to what we here in the media, what we see on television shows. You know, everything. This is. This is. It's all just. It's a terrible, misleading myth, I think. I'm glad you. That you went into this, that you brought this up.
Valerie Milburn: It's a good opportunity to get that information out there.
Helen Sneed: Yeah. Now, what we. All that we've just talked about, of course, brings great weight and complexity to relationships.
Helen Sneed: Now we can see now that relationships for men with mental challenges can be difficult, intimidating, and few and far between. Yet these individuals ultimately need support and a system, if possible. So here are a couple of types of relationships. Some of them, you know, perhaps would become intimate, which would be helpful. We can see now that the therapeutic relationship can be a bit controversial. Many men resist psychotherapy, or they begin it and then they drop out. It's too intimate, too slow, or too feelings oriented, which is they just don't want to go there. However, it's most beneficial for a male to have a professional helping him choose a course of therapy and guiding him through it. And that is where, if the relationship with the therapist is successful, it really can become the bedrock of recovery group therapy. This is where a male can discuss his symptoms and feelings in the safety of a group of men only. Now this has proven to be the safest place and a key to progress and candid discussion. The other thing that makes men more comfortable in talking about these intimate things is the peer relationship recovery coaching. Now this is easier for a male because he's dealing with a peer who's had similar issues and has overcome them. So the shame factor is much lower. And this also can be very beneficial. 12 step programs. Was sobriety a prerequisite for recovery from a recurring mental illness? Which we all know is the truth. 12 step programs can literally be lifesavers. And another thing that I've learned from my men, friends who have been in 12 step programs for some for decades say that it offers the company of other men in the same boat and they have established close relationships with other men that have gone on for their decades. Now all of this of course hits closest to home with families, friends, caregivers. 40% of men will not discuss their mental health with family or friends. Now it's hoped that a man can find a family member or friend whom he begins to trust and can confide in. But as with all relationships, suicide and potential for violence must be dealt with directly and rapidly if one becomes an issue. Now as for the caretakers themselves, living with and caring for a mentally challenged male can be extremely disruptive and hard on them. They also need a support system, partners, self soothing and stress reduction methods. And you know, some people even go into therapy for support and encouragement. Now another place of contradictions in a way is the workplace. For a man with mental health issues, the workplace can seem like a minefield. You know, the camaraderie that he's used to, the close relationships, scrutiny of bosses, and that just basic underlying need for employment. You know, you need a paycheck to survive. This can all create a highly stressful environment. Few males are willing to admit to problems or needing help, especially if the workplace culture is just buck up and move on. Now here is where things are taking a very positive turn in a relationship. And it is the relationship with society itself. It is now providing a more open and tolerant relationship with the individual and it helps that prominent figures and sports stars and celebrities are coming forward to discuss their own mental health challenges. It is so validating. There is a lessening of stigma and shame in the national dialogue, especially since the pandemic. It's hoped that this can become a door opener for men everywhere.
Valerie Milburn: Absolutely. Thanks for that great information on relationships, and it leads right into this next section on treatment methods. And it's the last thing we're going to comment on. And you know, Helen, you mentioned the important relationships that develop through psychotherapy, group therapy, and peer recovery coaching. And those are indeed effective treatment methods for men. And I did research which treatment methods are specifically effective for men. And there's not a lot of research that's been done on on that. In fact, one study I found on the efficacy of treatment methods specifically for men started out by saying that there is a paucity of research on the efficacy of treatment methods for men. But the research is
Valerie Milburn: clear, though, that the number one thing that keeps men from seeking treatment is that men don't want to talk about their mental health issues. And the research is clear that men are most comfortable talking about their mental health issues in a setting with other men. And you just pointed those two things out, Helen. So it's not a far jump to the efficacy of treatments such as group therapy and peer recovery coaching. And the safety and security these peer relationships establish can help open up other effective treatment methods such as individual therapy, medication, hospitalization, and skills training. Now, in general, there can also be gender differences in mental health treatment. Just in general, because women tend to internalize their emotions more than men, treatment for women might focus more on developing good coping skills. In contrast, men are more likely to act on their emotions, so treatment might look more at preventing harmful, impulsive behavior. Treatment for men also often focuses on exploring the relationship between trauma experiences and on masculine gender role expectations. One last note on gender. Doctors, therapists and other health providers may also fall victim to gender biases and as a result, diagnose and treat patients in different ways based on their gender without realizing it. The Jack Welch Management Institute at Strayer University helps you go from I know the way to I've arrived with our top 10 ranked online MBA. Gain skills you can learn today and apply tomorrow. Get ready to go from make it happen to made it happen and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu Jack Welchmba to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and as many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.
Valerie Milburn: So that's our background and statistics and kind of a laying the groundwork for what we are so happy to have to share with you today. And Rob, we have just such a warm place in our heart for our guests. I mean, Helen and I love it when we do our show alone. But you know, we just are so happy to have you here today. And a little bit about you. I know you retired seven years ago. You retired in your late 40s after two successful careers. One is the founder and owner of an event driven hedge fund and one as a fixer for small and medium businesses, helping boost their growth and profitability. And since then I know you've kept busy as a devoted husband to your second wife of 15 years and as a father to your three children and two stepchildren, all of whom are on their own either attending or working college. I know you are also busy as the head of advisory services at a local organization of 60 for profit professionals that provide pro bono organizational consulting to local nonprofits. You're also a burgeoning fiction writer, a frustrated golfer, and I love the way you describe yourself as a benchmark beating investor for your own portfolio fund. And you said that you do all of those things to fund it all and that you're funding it all includes a flat in Costa de Soul in Spain. I love that you and your wife spend three to four months there each year. Now you told me that you were somewhat abashed at highlighting how great your life is today, but I know you think it's important to show that a full, successful life is possible despite severe mental illness and substance abuse problems, and that those problems manifested during your childhood and that they didn't resolve for you until your early 50s. So please share the details of this story with us.
Speaker A: Thanks for the intro, Valerie. You know, I was listening to your prior talk between you and Helen and and the more you talk, the more I was thinking, boy, my life isn't
Speaker A: really as unique as I thought it was. This all sounds exactly like me. So, so I. I do want to as I go through my my history, I want to try and do two things. One, I want to try and call out the parts that I think maybe are a little different. And two, I want to try and have a little framework which I'm going to talk about in a second to highlight what I think might be more male oriented in my journey. So please, you know, at any time, if I'm not clear, you want to elaborate, have me elaborate on something, just let me know before I leave the great intro that you gave me that I obviously I wrote for you, but I wrote it for a reason, as you said, to show what's possible even later in life, for somebody who's struggled a long time. And I want to hold it up against part of this framework I'm going to use today to try and narrow down my journey into a few talking points because it can get pretty chaotic, as you know, with a lifetime of mental illness. And the things that I want to key in on from a male perspective are how I dealt, how I think about three things, and it's a mnemonic, fear, functionality and feelings. And those are sort of the three big things I've had to deal with along the way. And what I've come to realize and what got me here is I didn't really trust my feelings along the way. I found them volatile, intense, unreliable, and it made it very difficult. But what I could trust was whether or not I was functioning well and whether or not third parties, my wife, people whose investments I manage, the nonprofits, we give advice to the progress of a novel, if those things were working. I had a pretty good sense that I was in good shape. And it was a way that I couldn't fool myself because I am very adept at fooling myself. So I just wanted to hold that out there in the context of the endpoint that I think it's a very objective endpoint and not a subjective one, which is important to me.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, makes sense. I like that. It's good framework.
Speaker A: Thanks. So going back to the rewind to the beginning, and I think this is a part that is not atypical, but it's not completely typical in that that I didn't really have any overt childhood trauma. I wasn't abused, I wasn't neglected. There was no issue there. I had good parents, good nuclear family. My parents were both doctors. I had a brother, we were upper middle class. But what happened is somehow in the process of conception, in utero, in early attachment, I got a lot of wires crossed. And I know that because, not because I remember it, but by age 4, my grandmother had a prayer that she used to say, which is I pray for all my grandchildren, but I pray harder for Robbie. So obviously there was something going on with me that was apparent to my grandmother. That was not the case with my other. My sibling and my cousins. And what it was, it was a couple of things. It started off as a manifestation of adhd, although we didn't really have that diagnosis back then. Later on in life, I took a neuropsych, and the guy made me take a ADHD test and answer it as if I was a child. And there were three sections of six questions each. Hyperactivity, attention, and impulsivity. And you answered them yes or no? These questions? I scored a perfect 18 out of 18. I think it's pretty good that. I think it's pretty obvious that that would have been my diagnosis. Now, the other thing that was going on, which is even less fortunate, is I definitely had child onset conduct disorder. So I was not a nice kid for whatever set of reasons. You know, I hurt animals, I destroyed property, I set fires. I did all of the things required for that diagnosis. Not all of them. I guess there are. I like looking at the DSM, so I guess there are 15 things you can do with that. And if you have three, you have child onset conduct disorder. I had eight. So I was an overachiever with my conduct disorder. And. And. And it, you know, I was a bully in school.
Speaker A: It was just. I was just headed down the wrong path. And that path got even more wrong when I got to height. When I got to middle school and high school, I started drinking early. That's why I said, it's like, what's your recitation about the issues that men have?
Valerie Milburn: Right?
Speaker A: Yeah, it's my recitation. I started drinking likely, and we didn't say this back then, but likely to mask the symptoms of my mental health, my mental illnesses, which would evolve from ADHD into bipolar one with psychosis. So that was all happening at this time inside of me. And I'm sure my drinking was partly to deal with that, partly to deal with the social issues around my conduct disorder and my inability to have empathy and relate. You know, it's all a big. Like I said, it can all be chaotic and be a big mess, especially in childhood when things are chaotic anyway. And so I. I think I. I'm pretty sure I became an alcoholic at my first drink because we. We. We were in. In my friend's basement, and we were playing pool, and we were all about 14, and they were all having a beer or two and shooting pool and enjoying each other's company and laughing. And meanwhile, I had found the alcohol cabinet of his parents and cracked open bottles of the hard alcohol. And when next they looked over, I was lying unconscious on the floor in a pile of vomit. So I had no regulator, no self control, and that was it. I was a binge drinker from there on out. And it got worse in high school, but it got really worse in college because there was no governor. I didn't have to show up at home and look at my parents in the eye. I could just drink. So what also happened, though, at that point in college was as I drank, I got progressively more violent. So. And that, I think, jives well with your intro about young men and alcohol, you know, and for me, it wasn't. It was progressive, like what I was doing, the amount of fights I was getting in, the amount of trouble I was getting in were getting worse and worse. And that continued past college all the way till I was 25 when I stop drinking because I had recently gotten arrested for my second felony offense and just skated by at arraignment because I had a great lawyer, which a lot of people can't afford. And I had been recently pulled over twice in the same hour for dui, which was like the eighth time I had been pulled over for DUI and never got a ticket. So it was clear to me that the writing was on the wall between the violence and the potential jail and the DUIs. I just needed to stop at 25. But let me rewind because while that was all going on, I, when I graduated lots of times. First episode psychosis, which, you know, is, is. Is sort of the tell on bipolar was my first episode psychosis was at age 21, the summer after I graduated. I had a great job lined up at Merck. I was in some management training program out of college. And it's not again atypical that these life stressors, these transitions precipitate mental health crises. I didn't sleep for five nights in the training program. I for one, need at least some sleep in five nights or. Or it's not very pretty. And I went psychotic and had to. My parents had to drive across the state and come get me and throw me in an inpatient ward. And it was my first hospitalization. It was not a pleasant one. I was beaten by orderlies. I was straight jacketed. I was put thrown in an isolation room. I was shot up with massive amounts of halidol and everything else. So definitely an eye opener to me as someone who thought he was on a journey to grab the world by balls and squeeze. But I eschewed any type of therapy, really. I didn't want to make the moccasins. We actually made moccasins. They had us stitching up moccasins in our group. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to talk to the psychologist, I didn't want to take my meds. So in retrospect, and I'm probably going to pause here for a second and talk about recovery before I continue with illness.
Speaker A: But in retrospect, I wish I would have because all of these things, whether it's the alcohol or the mental illness or anything, is progressive. So the longer you wait to get healthy, to treat, the more difficult or unfortunately potentially impossible it will be to fully treat later on.
Valerie Milburn: Right. It's chronic, progressive and fatal if not treated.
Speaker A: Right.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah.
Speaker A: So I'll stop, maybe stop for a second and talk about medication. So that was, that was my first brush with it. And again, if I could go back, I would take medication. I probably wouldn't do therapy because as I'm going to get to the point, I've never done well with therapy. I don't like hasn't been part of my recovery and I haven't found it necessary to include, so peer support, yes. Therapy, no. So my first real shot at recovery was a, was, was, was getting sober when I was 25 because like I said, you know, I could sort of write, I don't know how I did it. I could sort of convince myself that going psychotic and ending up in a straitjacket was a one off event and I didn't need to worry about it. But the alcohol thing, it was clear to me I was going to careen off the road if I kept drinking. It was more stark because I had just gotten into Stanford Business school, which was my goal in life at that point, and it was orientation and I was standing on a table doing tequila shots and yelling and p****** off everybody. And I got dragged down by some second year alpha male guy who didn't like me hogging the spotlight or being obnoxious or whatever I was doing. And so I headbutted him and knocked him out and started bleeding profusely from my scalp and had to go to the hospital and get stitches. And I thought, you know, I'm either going to have to, I'm either going to squander this opportunity and do what I did at college and potentially end up in jail or I'm going to stop. And I think it takes a very stark choice to stop drinking. And that was my stark choice. So I stopped and I did you. I did go to aa and I did find that indispensable, that peer support, and for all the reasons Helen, you talked about. But I think the thing that was really valuable to me was I was sitting there in like my third meeting going, how in the h*** am I going to do this? This is agony. I can't do this. And this little drink of water girl, she was a college girl, got up and got her first year chip and said something. I don't remember what it was, but I was looking at her going, my God, if she can get a chip for a year, and she's like this little drink of water, you know, and maybe it's sexist or whatever, but, but I, I thought to myself that I can surely man up and, and get a chip, you know, so, so that was. I. I recall a turning point in my early sobriety and, and it was because of peer support. I wouldn't have come to that conclusion on my own.
Valerie Milburn: That's amazing to get sober that young. But I can see where you would. I mean, you definitely hit your bottom, as we say in the rooms. So congratulations. And that's a long time.
Speaker A: Yeah, like 31 years.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, so.
Speaker A: So that's been, that's been the, the, the track. And I want to go back to my fear, functionality and feelings now because this is really sort of the blueprint of my recovery. Whether it's substance abuse or mental illness or I guess there may be the same thing. Technically, there's a lot of fear for me. You know, it's, it's, it really constricts my world. I, I don't, I'm terrified. I remember being terrified. I remember like kneeling at my mother's knee after my first psychotic break, like clutching the hem of her dress, telling her to make it stop. You know, it's just, it's just, it can be terrifying. And if you. One thing I resolved really early was that I was not going to let fear dictate my recovery. So what I did. And I guess it's really. If I looked it up, I guess it's really some form of therapy, exposure therapy. If there was anything I was afraid of, I
Speaker A: would just go do it. And I would do it for no reason other than because I was afraid of it. And I would do it until I was no longer afraid of it. And it was sort of mindless, but it was what I did. And so, for instance, with drinking again, I was terrified that I couldn't even stop drinking. I was terrified to go out socially. I used to be doing tequila shots, headbutting people, and now I was drinking water. And so I said, well, I'm going to go to every party at Stanford Business School and I'm going to stay for the whole party if I can. And I couldn't in the beginning until it's over. And I'm just going to do it until I'm not afraid to do it and so I can make a choice whether I want to go to the party or not. Meeting women was also a anxiety provoking thing for me at that point in time, especially in my sobriety. And so I said, I'm going to go to bars and I'm going to stay out all night. I'm going to go by myself, I'm going to stay out all night. I'm going to do my best to meet an attractive woman and start dating her and on my own. And so I kept trying that until I succeeded and got a girlfriend. Fear to me is it just, it just crushes my life when I'm afraid of something. So, and I like to have a full open life. So that, so that's, that's my first order of business. And then my second order of business is can I function. And again, I'm holding the feelings part in abeyance for a second. So like I said, was I successful in going out to the bar? Did I play a good game of rugby? Was I able to write this novel? And I'm sort of ignoring my feelings because as I said, I don't trust them at this point in the process. And so finally I got to my feelings and what I realized was without medication, they were untrustworthy, is how I would describe it. Untrustworthy, like, like I could be in the most successful, most happy place and feel bad. I could be sitting at home quietly in front of the fireplace and feel anxious, you know, so it didn't make sense to me. I didn't. So I put them last. Rightly or wrongly, I put them last. And what I realized was that for me, what I needed to do to gain a modicum of ability to feel okay during my life was I needed medication. So that was apparent to me on my second hospitalization when I was 28. And I realized that this was going to be a trend if I didn't do something. So I took, I started taking a mood stabilizer when I was 28. And I want to talk about my sort of view on medication because I think it's probably not unique. So I viewed medication initially as a failure, like an epic failure, because if you can't, if one can't control his own mind, like, what. What do you have? I mean, you know, how, what's. What's it. What. What could be more core to. To being a human being than having the ability to control mine? And I viewed it at that as an epic failure, that I couldn't do that and that I kept ending up in a straitjacket. And so, so I, I said, okay, like, I'm just going to take this medication symbolically, basically, like, give me the lowest dose, give me the least, you know, that you think I can take. And. And then let's cut that in half.
Valerie Milburn: Wow.
Speaker A: And so, and so, so I went. So that was my mood's first mood stabilizer. Because then I thought, okay, now it's like a test of wills. Like, I'm gonna. I'm only gonna take the absolute bare minimum that anybody can take because otherwise I'm failing. Right. And so, so I did that. And, and that didn't work. You know, things kept getting worse. I ended up swapping out a couple of mood stabilizers. I finally went to. To a full dose of a single mood stabilizer because I was willing to take. I finally got backed into the corner where I was willing to take a whole dose of a mood stabilizer. And to fast forward, right now I'm on a mood stabilizer, an antidepressant, and an antipsychotic. So that took decades, right? Because I had to drag myself through the mud for forever, proving to myself what
Speaker A: a man I was by fighting tooth and nail against this medication. And I wish again, knowing what I know now about how these diseases are progressive, that I would have almost embraced is, I think, an appropriate word, medication as a way to make my life easier and better, not as a symbol of my failure, you know, and, and so, so I think, I think that Rob, I.
Valerie Milburn: Rob, I just gotta tell you, I'm just literally moved to tears listening to you share this, because you. I can only imagine how many people are going to be helped listening to this perspective, because that's all I have to say is that that's how powerful I think what you just shared is that so many people have these struggles. And I'm so grateful that you just shared that because it will indeed be helpful to so many people. Thank you.
Speaker A: Appreciate that. I guess the takeaway for me there was a lot of this really is at least for me. And if I hark back to the Beginning of my story, brain chemistry rather than behavior and. And trauma. So for me, that's. That's more my story. Not. Not to say that the trauma is not a lot of other people's story, but for me, mine's more of. I think, more of a brain chemistry story. And. And eventually I. I got on this new cocktail of these three things, and ironically, the mood stabilizer that he put me on that worked was the very first one they tried to give me when I was 21 that I said, no way.
Valerie Milburn: That is ironic. Talk about ironic. Yes. Yeah. No wonder you look back on it and think, would have, shoulda, coulda.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So. So. And then literally, literally, since that cocktail has gotten. Has. Has stabilized me, my life is literally just blossomed like a bouquet. I mean, it's crazy.
Valerie Milburn: I just really want to thank you for what you've shared, and you really did validate a lot of what we opened with and also added so much. And I know we had a couple of areas we wanted to follow up on, but some of it you've covered. And, Helen, do you want to follow up on any areas in particular? I know there were a couple things you and I talked about. We wanted to ask Rob about.
Helen Sneed: Well, I think, Rob, you've covered so much, and I think I want to thank you for many things, but what helped me the most, or one of the things, was hearing you explain what you were thinking as opposed to what you were doing. For example, your biases against medication, that it was a sign of weakness, which. That. That's the kind of thing that would. That would. That would hold me up for years, you know, with those kind of biases or unexpressed prejudices against something and whatever. So I think this is tremendously helpful to other people.
Valerie Milburn: Rob, you and I have presented numerous times for national alliance on Mental Illness Crisis Intervention Training here in Austin, Local police sheriffs. And I love presenting with you. So there's something you mentioned in that talk that I'm hoping you just be willing to touch on here. Helen talked a lot about the importance of relationships, and I know there is some. There was a huge turning point in your recovery based on a relationship. And. Would you want to talk about that for a second?
Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I. I would. I'd love to. In fact, I was sitting here thinking, what did I leave out? Oh, yeah. So again, not a big fan of. Of psychotherapy, you know, but. But big fan of peer support, big fan of friends, and an even bigger fan of a loving, intimate relationship, in my case, in the form of my wife. My second wife, 15 years. And it's funny now that you bring it up, but I know you're laughing because. Because all credit to her. I mean, while I can fight through a lot of this just by force of will, at the end of the day, especially for someone like me who had challenges with empathy, I do think there's a sort of loving yourself component of this that's required to get a full
Speaker A: recovery. And I don't think you can love yourself until you can love somebody else. So, yes, she was the linchpin of my recovery. So. Sorry mentioning you sooner.
Valerie Milburn: No, it's just. So. It's interesting you say that. A lot of people say you can't love someone until you love yourself. I love the way you just put it the other way, because I think it's. It's. It. It's both.
Speaker A: How do you. How do you know how to love yourself if you can't sort of externalize it and see it and, and understand it and see somebody's reaction, especially for somebody, like, maybe it is opposite for somebody like me who's empathy impaired. Like. Like, I. I don't feel it. So I have to. I have cognitive empathy. I don't have emotional empathy as much. So I. I'm starting to feel that it's. It's like baby journey for me, you know?
Valerie Milburn: No, I love that you have to be able to love somebody else before you can love yourself. I see that, too. I see both sides of it. And I know that there's a. There's a lot of belief and research and anecdotal evidence that just one person who supports you and believes you, believes in you, is what can save a life. And that we know that there's an epidemic of loneliness in this country. We know that isolation is what kills people with mental illness. And if it's your therapist, your wife, your sister, your neighbor, anybody that you can connect with is what can make the difference. And you just proved that. That it's a loving, intimate relationship. And we know it can even be just a connection that makes a difference. And we talk about that, Helen, you and I talk about that all the time. How to make that connection in any way.
Helen Sneed: Enforcer who said connect, only connect. You know, that just says it all to me. You know, just. You just need to do it. And, and obviously you have found ways to do it, Rob. So, And. And coming at it in a different angle than I think what is espoused a lot in the therapeutic community, which is love yourself first. Well, that just what if you can't, you know, and you need to learn it elsewhere. But I have, I have sort of a question that's a, quite a sort of a jump here from, from this and that is about. You mentioned that you had some, some violence and actions or whatever behaviors way back when, when you were, when you were really drinking or really in trouble. Do you feel like that those actions. You know, a lot of times people keep saying, well, with men, it's, it's the anger that they are able to let out. But do you think that all that was based on fear? You talk a lot about fear.
Speaker A: Yeah, when I was drinking, either because it was sort of aligned with my vision of what a manly man was and, or because of the chemicals in me. I don't recall being afraid much. In fact, I literally would seek out violence.
Valerie Milburn: So if you feel yourself slipping back into any of that today, how do you practice self soothing? Do you have music, books, exercise, meditation? Reaching out? What helps you most now when your recovery is threatened?
Speaker A: Literally, it's my medication. And I'll answer a secondary thing, but I do think it's worth, I think it is worth embracing medication and trying to fine tune it rather than sort of taking it and feeling like you're done with it for this very reason. Because if I look at my life as you described it, well, like, what more could I want, right? What more? And it's not stressful. I'm, I'm, it's not too much for me. I'm, I enjoy it all. Like, what more could I want? And so to me, if I, if I'm having that discontinuity between my functionality and my feelings, the first thing I think of is, is this a medication issue? Now if it's after that, you know, personally for me to relax, I like reading, I love, I like, I like golfing with my wife, you know, so, so I do have my, my relaxing hobbies. But there's there no, no mad, no mystery or magic in them. They're the things that lots of people do to relax.
Valerie Milburn: Right. And then how about advice? You gave a lot of really good
Valerie Milburn: advice. Do you have any different advice for men as you would then for women?
Speaker A: Well, this is where, you know, this is where I listened to your opening and I thought about it and I thought about my story and I do wonder. I mean, men and women are different, obviously, genetically, obviously. You point out young men being more violent, which clearly is linked to testosterone, which clearly is different. So I'm a big believer in the biological differences that cause Differences in the way that we live and process now what those are. And if it's a continuum and some people are closer to one end than the other and some women are more male and some men are more female, I'm sure that's the case. But I would put myself on the more male end of the spectrum. And I think whether it's this chemistry and testosterone or social norms, I do think more men are empathy impaired than women. I think a lot of women have the opposite challenge, too much feeling. And so if you're in that camp of having not much access to your feelings, then I wonder if my sort of action oriented recovery strategy is more aligned with that sort of chemistry. So I don't know the answer to that. That's just my.
Helen Sneed: Well, I'll tell you something, I'm so glad you brought that up because as I was listening to your story, I kept thinking, I do that, you know, some things that I think people might typically think were male characteristics or male symptoms or whatever. I, I, I did a lot of the same things. Not the, not the, the physical stuff, but the, just a lot of things about I have to fix it on my own. I'm not going to rely on anyone, you know, a lot of sort of more and I, you know, I need to take the action, although I couldn't, you know, it was, it was very interesting because I thought maybe the difference, there are obviously these very, very, you know, poignant, impertinent differences. But, but maybe they're all the similarities are something that bear looking at, I think.
Speaker A: Well, as you talk about it, the.
Helen Sneed: Facts of your recover say the facts versus the facts of minor Valeries.
Speaker A: Yeah. As you talk about it, I, I, I'm thinking of my mother. Right. So if I had to. My mother's 88. She still runs a division of a large regional hospital. She still works 50 hours a week. It's insane. My father's deceased. My mother, she had, she got Covid over the holidays and insisted on spending six hours making Thanksgiving paella, you know, and for everybody because she had said she was going to do it. And if she says she's going to.
Valerie Milburn: Do something, she does it at 80, at 88.
Speaker A: 88. She's almost 89. And, and where I was going with this is I am far more like my mother than my father, who was, she's a, like a hard charger, doer, you know, high functioning, always functioning. And my father was sensitive, empathetic, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm far more like my mother than my father. So I don't quite understand it all. And I agree that there are these spectrums and maybe there's archetypes and you're more like this type, no matter what sex you are. I don't know.
Helen Sneed: Well, a lot of that remains to be found out if they will ever, as they are now beginning to research the condition of men and mental health, which I think is very refreshing for, you know, for the field to take it on finally. But I guess I don't have any more questions except always our final one, I think.
Valerie Milburn: No, I think we're there. Let's wrap up with our traditional final question.
Helen Sneed: Yeah. What we always ask our guests is what brings you hope for people who struggle with a mental health condition today? What makes you hopeful for others?
Speaker A: Well, I think two things. One is what effectively I saw at nami, which is people actively trying to destigmatize mental health and talking about mental health. I think had I grown up in this era instead of the era I did, I would hope that I would have not had such a struggle with the medication issue in particular. So I think that's hopefully, and I really think the pharmacology is helpful. I mean, the advances that are being made in these
Speaker A: drugs are incredible. And as I said earlier, to me it seems like a game of darts. And if there are more and better darts to throw, then I think more people can benefit more from the pharmacology. So I think those two things are helpful to me.
Helen Sneed: Well, I am, I'm going to be hard pressed to have to bring this topic to a close because I think we would want you to keep talking for another hour or so. Rob, you're just remarkable. You have really helped us, I would say, not only understand but sort of unravel some of the male perspective because you're so articulate and eloquent and then you really are very clear minded about your own experience and the outcomes. So I want to thank you on behalf of our listeners who have learned so much from you today. And so what we're going to do is we always end with a mindfulness exercise with Valerie, because it's a better way to leave us after these discussions. Valerie.
Valerie Milburn: Thank you, Helen.
Helen Sneed: Yes.
Valerie Milburn: We will close with our traditional mindfulness exercise. First, I want to thank you, Rob, for being with us today. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, your perspective, your recovery and your hope. Now, what is mindfulness? I always give a definition. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the Present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations without judgment. Today's mindfulness exercise is called Fear False Expectations Appearing Real. You know, fear is largely caused by our thoughts, often irrational what ifs type of thoughts. Think of these thoughts as false expectations appearing real. I remember once when I literally vomited before going into a pitch for a large advertising account. I was that afraid that I was going to forget my presentation or even totally freeze and just blow the whole thing. This was fear as in false expectations appearing real. Because in truth, I was prepared. I was ready to nail that presentation. Fearful thoughts aren't always rational. Mindfulness can help us train our mind to stay in the present moment, to notice an anxious, irrational, fearful thought as it arises, to see it, and to let it go. Let's try it. Let's get mindful. We will begin, as always, with our diaphragmatic breathing. If you are driving or walking, please adapt to this mindfulness exercise in such a way that it works in your current surroundings. If you can find a comfortable seated position, try closing your eyes. If it's safe to do so, we will take two diaphragmatic breaths together. I usually take about 10 to start my mindfulness and meditation practice. Let's breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach. Hold your breath. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do so. Take another inhale through your nose. Expand that imaginary balloon. Hold your breath. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in. Drop your shoulders. Pull your stomach all the way in. Continue with this deep, regular breathing. Recall a time you were fearful or anxious about an upcoming event. Visualize yourself in the surroundings prior to that event. What was your dominating, fearful, or anxious thought?
Valerie Milburn: Visualize writing that thought on a piece of paper and then reading that written thought. Visualize putting that piece of paper in a jar, closing the lid on the jar, and saying to yourself, thought noted. Put the jar down. Let the thought go. You have just noted a mental event. A mental event. A thought, not a truth. Go back to your visualization of the event with the fearful or anxious thought having been noted, dealt with, and let go. Now look at the bigger picture of the situation. Breathe in. Breathe out. Take 30 seconds to experience your new perspective.
Speaker A: It.
Valerie Milburn: If your eyes are closed, please gently open them and bring yourself back to the room. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.
Helen Sneed: Thank you, Valerie. This brings our episode to a peaceful close, which is really nice. Again, our deepest gratitude to Rob Dye for the candor and hope that he gave us today and our thanks to our great listeners everywhere. We couldn't do this without you. Our next episode is our third annual collection of the year's favorite mindfulness exercises. Our gift to help you stay centered throughout the holiday season. And then, as promised, we will kick off 2024 with our women and Mental Health episode. We'll explore and reveal the similarities, differences, contradictions and just the mysteries of women with mental health challenges, especially in light of what we've learned today about men and mental health. Please join us. And now, until then, I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.