If you're searching for inspiration and uplift, look no further. Valerie and Helen will provide you with an escape from the doldrums needed by all of us after a long, hot summer. In this episode, two extraordinary guests, Kimberly and Stacy, tell their powerful stories of recovery from mental health challenges. Due to dramatic conditions and setbacks, they have overcome many severe obstacles to emerge triumphant after years of struggle. Their stories lift the spirits of all who listen, and strengthen the resolve of those of us fighting for our mental health against all odds. Please don't miss the chance to join their unforgettable journeys.
Find Valerie and Helen and Mental Health Hope and Recovery on Facebook
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Powerful Stories of Recovery: The Journeys of Stacy and Kimberly
Episode 33
Helen Sneed: Welcome to Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals. But we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery.
Valerie Milburn: So can you this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.
Helen Sneed: Foreign welcome to episode 33 powerful stories of Recovery, the Journeys of Stacy and Kimberly. Here we are in the Dog days of summer.
Valerie Milburn: Valerie I'd call it the Dog days. Yesterday it was 107 degrees here in Austin, Texas.
Helen Sneed: All right, well, we know from whence we speak now because of this or we have both felt the need. In fact, we suspect that lot of people feel the need for some uplift and inspiration, especially when so much of the world is sweltering in record breaking heat. So we've turned to a subject that never fails to inspire and strengthen those of us with mental health challenges. We're talking about the powerful stories told firsthand by those who have fought and overcome mental illnesses to live in recovery. Now we know that this is true for us and it's often mentioned by our listeners as a great source of hope.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, and today's episode will indeed provide hope and inspiration, Helen, because you and I know our guests and we know how powerful their stories are. Because today our friends Stacy Jones and Kimberly Rogers are joining us to share their journeys and I am excited to to introduce these friends to our listeners. So let's tell everyone a little bit about Stacy and Kimberly. When I asked my dear friend Kimberly Rogers to send me some things she would like our listeners to know about her, the first thing on her list is that she is a person in long term recovery from trauma, substance use and anxiety disorder. And I love that she put that first. She put recovery first. She also includes cancer survivor as part of her recovery. Now I've known Kimberly for about eight years, both professionally and personally. I met her professionally and I watched her firsthand use her amazing organizational and people skills as an executive assistant at an Austin recovery based nonprofit and she previously used those skills to be the glue for an advertising agency in Dallas. And I have to say that Kimberly and I became friends immediately when we met. So about five years into her recovery, Kimberly's passion to serve and watch others recover led her to become a Certified Peer
Valerie Milburn: Recovery Coach. In her most recent position, she served as a Peer Recovery Coach with United Healthcare. Kimberly has a merchandising degree from the Art Institute of Dallas and a certification from the Paris Fashion Institute. She was born in the Mississippi Delta and became a Texan in 1989. She lovingly fulfills the roles of mother, daughter, sister, friend and caregiver. Kimberly loves cardinals and dachshund hounds and I love Kimberly.
Helen Sneed: I haven't heard Kimberly's story and I am so curious about it. I can't wait. And also I have the unique pleasure of introducing our other storyteller, Meredith S. Jones, known as Stacy to many of those of us who know and love him. Now Stacy is the Program Manager for the foundation for the Homeless and former executive director of LifeSteps Council on Alcohol and Drugs. Stacy has a string of impressive letters after his name. He is a licensed master social worker, licensed chemical dependency counselor and affiliate sex offender treatment provider. He has over nine years of experience in the social services field with a focus on co occurring disorders for substance abuse, mental health and physical health challenges, tobacco cessation and court mandated offender education and treatment for sexual offenders. Stacy has broad professional interests which include substance abuse, severe mental health and ptsd, adult and youth deviant sexual behaviors, social work policy, diversity, equity and inclusion, social determinants of health, veterans mental health and community re entry services. It was in 2014 that Stacy's journey began as a professional Peer support specialist. And today, seven degrees later, he is a doctoral student at Angelo State University School of Social Work. Now, I knew when I met Stacy that he was this extraordinary individual, and he, you know, he was. He was terribly intelligent and articulate and fun and full of life. But what I didn't know is that he was going to become the renaissance man of social services. Kimberly and Stacy look great on paper, right? But how did they get there? What did it take? Let's follow them on their remarkable journeys.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, Helen, they do indeed look good on paper. And you know what? They look good in person as well, because we are all together here tonight. And, you know, I want to welcome Kimberly and Stacy to our podcast. We're so glad you guys are with us. Thank you so much for being here, Stacy and Kimberly.
Helen Sneed: Yeah, this is just a real sort of plum opportunity for us, so hooray.
Stacy Jones: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to kind of hang out with you guys. And I'm quite sure that tonight for this just being a podcast, we get a chance to just kind of, you know, hang out and just kind of talk about it from a real perspective.
Valerie Milburn: Absolutely.
Kimberly Rogers: Yes. And ditto what Stacy said. I'm super glad to be joining you guys tonight. This is awesome, and thank you so much. It's great to see you guys.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, it is. I haven't seen Stacy in a while, and it was so great when you popped up on the screen. It was like, yay, I get to see Stacy. So we're gonna just dive right into it here. And, you know, I've been thinking that we all travel an individual road in our mental health journey and into our recovery. And, you know, the first thing I wanted to talk about, and, Stacy, I'm going to pitch it to you first. I wanted to see if you could share with us what incident made you realize for the first time that you were in real trouble with your mental health.
Stacy Jones: You know, it's kind of like that fog, right? I always liken it to the check engine light. I believe that the check engine light was on for quite some time, but it was when I woke up at Ash. Right. I think that's kind of a weird deal when you wake up in a psychiatric hospital and you're like, whoa, wait a minute. And immediately your brain starts trying to figure out how different you are from everyone else. So you are immediately in this
Stacy Jones: state of isolation. But if we wanted to go back even further, when did I first notice that the check engine light was on?
Valerie Milburn: I don't know.
Stacy Jones: You know what I Mean, it was probably at that point where I had learned to normalize a lot of my activities that I didn't think that I was actually in some form of serious trouble or possible trouble. And that normalization of those activities over such a long period of time, they eventually came to a head. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard much.
Valerie Milburn: Right. I've heard that referred to as kind of like the frog in the water. If you slowly turn up the water, you don't really notice it, and we just get acclimated to it and we have those kind of behaviors. Yeah, I really. I know. Yes, we do it. The different things that happen when we have a mental health condition for so long, we do just kind of get used to it. And that's an interesting perspective. What about you, Kimberly?
Kimberly Rogers: What.
Valerie Milburn: What was the first incident that made you realize that you were in real trouble with your mental health?
Stacy Jones: Wow.
Kimberly Rogers: Yeah, I can completely relate to Stacy. You know, I was thinking, just reflecting on. On the question, and I. I always felt different, you know, always knew that I was different in some ways. But you. I just couldn't put my finger on it. And it was normal to me. My life was normal to me. And, you know, over the years, you know, I thought I was responding to life and all of the events, the. You know, just like everyone else, I knew deep down inside that there was something very different. In 2016, I found myself at a convenience store, locked myself in with cops and friends surrounding the car, and I was hysterical in a massive drug induced psychosis. And that was a real turning point for me. I was sent immediately to a psychiatric hospital in the Dallas Fort Worth area. And that's when I knew that, you know, things had turned.
Valerie Milburn: That's a big turning point. That's definitely a wake up call. And it's like I said, it's different for all of us. Mine was when a neurologist told me I had had a dissociative episode and that that got my attention, definitely. So for all of us, it was big something big. Psychiatric hospital, a doctor's diagnosis of something. At the time, I didn't even know what a dissociative episode was. But I realized I had left my body and earlier that day ended up in the ER that ran tests and neurologist told me something. I definitely saw something that needed to be attended to. So we all went on journeys from there with our mental health. I know that about all of us. And Stacy, can you talk about how your mental health escalated from that point, from that visit to Austin? State Hospital.
Stacy Jones: Well, you know, and I like how you put that right. It's like we all have our individual journeys. And I love how you had mentioned that you always felt different. Again, I think that there was a period of time in my life where I was normalizing that difference, but I was normalizing it as a survival tactic. So I would find ways to hide myself. Even though I was in a crowd of a thousand people, I felt like I was alone. And that happened for a very long time. And if, if I were to go back to where I think that original check engine light came on, I would say when I was much younger, but it was just something that you. You didn't talk about it. You definitely didn't talk about it in the neighborhoods, in the family, and in the African American environment that I grew up in, because that's just not what is done, especially during my era. During that time frame, you didn't talk about mental health and you didn't show anything that would be considered some form or sign of weakness. So it wasn't until whenever I said that I ended up in the psychiatric hospital, I didn't mention
Stacy Jones: the times before that. And there were some huge times before that. And those huge times dealt with using substances to numb the pain. Right. Whatever that pain was. And eventually for me, I like, again, you said dissociative because I sought to being dissociative. I wasn't high enough until I was in a very psychotic tizzy. Right. If I could use those words and I would find some normalcy in that. And again, that just wasn't normal. So when did I find that? What happened afterwards? When I received a diagnosis while being at Austin State Hospital, immediately I figured, oh, wow, that's what's wrong. But then there was that part that told me that I didn't want to accept that. So it wasn't until another trip, this time at Shoal Creek. And on each of the trips prior to that, they followed a suicide attempt. Because for me, what I was going through was so great that I could not reach out to anyone. But the best thing that I could think of would be to check out from everyone and do that on my own. And I believe that it was probably right about then that things started to come to this realization that, dude, you really got something you need to check out, right? And not check out from completing suicide, but check out as in, why is that check engine light on and go out and start to seek help. Was there more functionality after that? You know, slowly, slowly. The real question was, was there Even more denial after that.
Valerie Milburn: Oh, yeah, I had.
Stacy Jones: I lived in denial because I didn't want to be different and where everybody knew that I was different. Right. So.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, right. Well, that's often the denial. I know I've talked about that a lot, that I just was in complete denial. The fragile state of my mental health. And I too, as we all know, sought substances to. To check out on my. At any level I could. And so, Kimberly, you. You were, you know, found yourself surrounded by cops and friends and. And locked in a car and got help from there into a psychiatric hospital. And how did your mental health condition escalate from that point?
Kimberly Rogers: Well, denial is that. You guys are mentioning denial. I ended in the psychiatric hospital and I was strapped down for many, many hours. And I got out. There's a fog. I don't remember exactly what happened because that episode was so, you know, it was the. The catalyst, you might say. And so once I left there, there's a fog. But I do know I went away from people, friends or family, back to my car to continue substances until I just ran out of, you know, options financially, mentally and physically. So, yes, that was. That was definitely the catalyst. I was just in a fog until I entered recovery several months later. I was just driving around. I was renting a room from someone, but I never went to the house. I had lost communication with my family, friends, everyone. I was in complete isolation and not really sure because of the brain fog and the psychosis, if I really believed that I had a problem.
Helen Sneed: Well, I think that's always. Or something that we all come up against is when do you have a problem? And I think what you guys are describing is sort of an escalation of symptoms and a lack of, you know, disappearance of functionality or whatever. And so it's. I'm curious about what were the conditions in your life like when you hit bottom? Can you remember the bottoming out when, you know, when you just go, you know, thud. This is. You're at the bottom of the abyss. Was there a specific. Can you remember that when that happened, Stacy?
Stacy Jones: You know, so yeah, during that time, and the irony of
Stacy Jones: that, which I'll talk about a little later on, but I had, like Kimberly said, I had isolated myself to the point to where financially I was strapped. I had lost my place to live. I was homeless or experiencing homelessness. I had spent often nights under the bridge at I35 in Rundberg. I had been out in the campsites off of Renberg, off to the side. I found myself riding the bus at Night, because it was just a place to find refuge and being able to sleep versus the fact of being out outside. There was a period that I can remember sitting at the bus stop watching people go to work and saying to myself, and I remember this vividly, I used to do that. Why can't I do that now? And it was like an internal dialogue that would bring about these tears. And the only thing that I knew that would fix those tears again was something. Something that was external for me. And in most cases, it was substance. In other cases, it might have been other nefarious activities that would bring about excitement. I turned into a dark place. I turned into a very dark person. I have participated in a lot of things that I believe that due to my condition at that time and how it had exacerbated that that was all part of it. Right. And could I have sought help at that time? At that moment, I was in such survival mode. I was no longer caring about the mental health. I was carrying more about everything else outside of me that. You know what I mean? My children didn't talk to me. My brothers had already disowned me. I was in that state of. I liked how you said dysfunctionality, but I called it functionality. I keep thinking that it was some form of organized chaos, but it was. It was just chaos. You know what I mean?
Helen Sneed: Yeah, yeah. Was it like that for you, Kimberly, when you were bottoming out? I mean, can you remember what was going on around you, you know, in the sort of the various aspects of your life?
Kimberly Rogers: Oh, absolutely. It was. It was very similar. I was experiencing homelessness at that time, at the. You know, in that season after the psychiatric hospital. And financially, I was just bankrupt. And I. I basically had one person that I could call who ended up helping me get to Austin to a treatment facility where I slept in the car the night before, because I was completely out of options. And again, at that time, I don't know that I fully embraced my mental health condition. I was so, you know, still in the phase of using substances. So that was the bottom for me.
Helen Sneed: Of Both of you went through some of the same things in terms of ending up homeless. Right. And so it was very, very drastic conditions for you. I remember, for me, I have to start by saying I feel like some people hit bottom more than once. I know I did. And I. You know, we have. We all go through the. You know, there's a horrible rhythm to it. Do you know what I mean? And you. You think bottom, and you kind of start crawling out, and then you get triggered and go back again. I know for me, some of this had to do with PTSD because, you know, it's so cyclical in nature when you get, when you get triggered. But when I was bottoming out, I had one of the, the, the worst bottoms. I had just been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which I don't think anyone's real excited about, you know, to find that out because it's, you know, it's so pejorative in terms of housing. I had no money. I had nothing. And my therapist, of all things, my doctor, was pushing me to sell my condo to pay for more therapy. Now I was clinging onto my house as best I could, you know, so this was really stupid advice and my self image. I don't know if this happened to you guys. At one point, at this point, I really thought that I was going to be a mental patient for the
Helen Sneed: rest of my life. I had no hope that that was going to change. And so I want to ask you guys, everybody, can you describe what it felt like at the very. To be at that very bottom of the abyss? What it, you know, bottoming out? You know, a lot of people say, well, what does it feel like? And can you, can you remember sort of what literally what you were feeling?
Valerie Milburn: I can. I know my absolute bottom was during my seventh psychiatric hospitalization after my suicide attempt. It was on my birthday, which happened to be Mother's Day that year. And my husband told me I couldn't come home. He wasn't abandoning me. I've talked about this before. He was protecting himself and our children. But when he said that to me on the phone, I couldn't. I literally couldn't breathe. I could not take. I could not take my next breath. I, I was immobilized for the moment. I couldn't speak. I couldn't breathe. I felt like my world had just come to an end. I had just tried to take my life, I think, the day before and had spent the entire day being brought back to life. And then the next day I felt like, why. Why am I here? My life has just been taken from me. My family is, you know, so that's what it felt. It felt like the end. That bottom felt like the end that I could never dig back out of.
Helen Sneed: Kimberly.
Kimberly Rogers: Can you remember, like you said, Helen, you know, the. There were so many bottoms. But really, you know, once I reached a point after that last psychiatric hospital, I, I. There was just a sense of help, helplessness and hopelessness that I had never felt before. I felt Disconnected from everything and everyone. And, you know, obviously, I just had no vision for life. I really was just doing. Going into treatment because I really had nowhere else to go. But I didn't have any encouragement or hope that I was going to, you know, be able to recover and embrace any type of, you know, valuable or purposeful life. At that moment, it was really the only option I had. I was out of all options. So really, that was my bottom.
Helen Sneed: Well, that what you just said reminds me of. Of one of mind. And again, I can't really articulate what it was like, but I can tell you what it felt like.
Kimberly Rogers: I.
Helen Sneed: My therapist had sent me to Bellevue Hospital. I lived in New York City, and Bellevue, you know, as you probably know, is synonymous with the big, dark, looming asylum, you know, patients chained to the wall and horrible, horrible reputation. And there it was.
Valerie Milburn: It was.
Helen Sneed: It was still there, still open. You went through these big gates. And I was so desperate. You know, I had. I had no. No money. And my therapist had learned that they were starting a day, an outpatient program for people with BPD with borderline personality disorder. And I was desperate to get in. So I got there, and the head of the program interviewed me, and his staff was there and whatever. And at the end, he looked at me and he said, helen, he said, I can't have you here. And I said, why? And he said, well, he said, I have to think of my staff and my trainees. He said, they couldn't handle you. And that was it. I don't know why he was so cruel, but that was. That was it. And I remember walking out of there and I felt like my legs had been amputated. You know, it's so. It's such a. It's a body blow. Do you know what I mean? And I don't know how I walked out of there, but I did. And the thing that I remember feeling was that I was. If. If I was too sick for Bellevue, there was no place for me.
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Helen Sneed: And I was completely alone. And I. And I. I thought, no one's gonna. No one will have me. You know, And I'll never forget that feeling of utter abandonment from the whole world, you know?
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Stacy Jones: You know, Helen, I don't know. And for the listeners as well, the idea of a bottom. I really wonder if there is a bottom. And I mean that.
Stacy Jones: Not figuratively, but the way each of you have described what you went through, even when I think about mine, I. I think I could have went even lower. I think that I completely agree, you know, What I mean, I mean, eventually I lost my freedom. And being in prison, I knew that that was based on my activities, which was based on my mental health, which was a combination of multiple things. But it could have been more. It could have been more. I. I don't know. It's like you're right about the abyss. You're just falling. You know what I mean?
Helen Sneed: Well, I used to feel as if. And it's just. I know this sounds very sort of self serving or whining or something, but I really felt like the suffering was bottomless, that it would just. It would just go on and on and on. And fortunately, I was wrong. But. But I know what you're talking about. You.
Valerie Milburn: You.
Helen Sneed: It's that sense of if. If certain conditions hadn't caught you, you might have fallen even farther. So I guess we're all lucky that we didn't, you know?
Valerie Milburn: Stacy. Your comment just now about what is. What could the bottom have been? You know, it could have gone even farther. Just takes me right to what I want to talk about next. How did we all find the strength to crawl out? What made us make that our bottom? You know, and that is just such a wonderful thought to know that we could have gone to an even lower bottom, but all of us found the strength to pull out.
Kimberly Rogers: And.
Valerie Milburn: I'd love to hear. Kimberly, do you want to talk about that? How did you find the strength to crawl out?
Kimberly Rogers: Wow, that's a. That's a very interesting thought. You know, I'm. I'm thinking back seven years ago and I Don't know, you know, if I had the strength, I. I was so out of options. And because of that, I was in a. In a place of open mindedness. So I was able to embrace the treatment facility because, you know, that was the only option. And it was through that treatment and being with other people that were trying to recover, I think that's really what gave me the strength to embrace the next step after treatment. And it was really seeing other people that were just like me. That was the turning point. And the people like me were trying to really get better. And so that's all I had. That was the only connection I had. And I think it's because of them that I think that really gave me the strength.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, Helen, you've talked about that so much that, you know, it was the people that helped you. And we've talked about that, you know, the people in the hospitals, the people in our. In group therapy, that it's the connection, it's the relationship. So I think that's really interesting, Kimberly.
Helen Sneed: Well, Kimberly, it sounds like you are. It's. It's what I've. I think that we're all so fortunate when we have people around us because I just borrowed other
Helen Sneed: people's courage. I borrowed. I would have stolen hope.
Kimberly Rogers: Right.
Helen Sneed: If I could have. Do you know what I mean? And. And I think that those are the. These are the things that, that others give us. You know, a positive. A positive reflection of yourself in someone else's face. I mean, that could keep me going for weeks.
Kimberly Rogers: Absolutely.
Helen Sneed: What you're describing. So what about you, Stacy?
Stacy Jones: So if I think of like, quantifiably eight rehabs, two psychiatric hospitalizations, a stint in prison, and multiple lockups, I have to say that it was peer support and exactly what you're talking about now. I saw someone who was like me, that was modeling something completely different. And that when I saw them, I learned that I no longer had to apologize for who I was. I learned that I could live in my own skin and be comfortable. And there was something about that. And I love that you said that you would steal courage or steal the hope, because what do they tell you? They say, fake it till you make it. And. But I've been faking it the whole time for so long, you know what I mean? That I like the acronym hope, Hang on Pain Ends or Hang on, Peace exists. And that's what I saw in the peers that I. And it was enough to guide me, to guide me to another direction.
Helen Sneed: Well, we're kind of moving into something that that, That I think is. Is an exciting thing to look at and to. And to try to sort of, I guess, re, you know, refashion, you know, today, as we're talking here, looking back. And that is what inspired or sustained you in your fight for recovery. I mean, there's so many things it could be. You know, we talked about relationships just now, but, you know, it was mindfulness meditation, a 12 step program, all these things, you know, treatment and all kinds of relationships. What was there something that you really could cling on to? What about you, Kimberly?
Kimberly Rogers: Wow. Really, what sustained me? It was absolutely the people, and it was the 12 step programs that I was participating in, and also primarily peer support. And what I mean is there was a local communities for recovery where I volunteered, and there was almost like a resource center for people like me. And so I had the 12 step program along with, you know, that local community center. And it was through connection. And then as I was able to get on my feet a little bit more, I began to embrace therapy. And therapy and others were the key component to my jump start into recovery.
Helen Sneed: The therapeutic relationship was really important once. Once you got into it.
Kimberly Rogers: Yes, once I, you know, in terms.
Helen Sneed: Of getting your recovery right.
Kimberly Rogers: You know, once I stabilized and I was felt connected and I knew that I was on this recovery path and I didn't want to go backwards. You know, it was a little bit here and a little bit there. Not everything at once. You know, it was a process. It was absolutely a beginning journey. And therapy was. I initiated therapy pretty quickly in the beginning.
Helen Sneed: Well, it sounds like that was a wise thing to do.
Valerie Milburn: Yes. And the Communities for Recovery is where you and I met, Kimberly. That's right. And it is the peer support and the relationships there are absolutely the key to so many people's recovery. And it's such a resource for community recovery organizations, which are available all over the country. And I'd love to throw that out as a resource. You can Google community support organizations, community recovery organizations, and you'll see they come up literally in many, many cities. And that's a great resource for anybody looking to find peers, activities, volunteer opportunities. Just Google community recovery organization. I got to throw that resource out there while we're talking about it because it's so important for our listeners. So anyway, a plug for a great resource.
Helen Sneed: Now we can take all the resources you can give us back or recovery.
Valerie Milburn: Yes.
Stacy Jones: You know,
Stacy Jones: Stacy. Yeah, I was gonna say that. I. I don't know. I. I tried a lot of things. The one thing that I started to Realize are the things that. That I wasn't. And I have to say that I wasn't a friend, therefore I couldn't accept friends. I wasn't a good father, therefore I couldn't accept my children. And when I say that, I'm saying I had to come to this realization of the things that I was doing as a result of not addressing my mental health and substance use. But on top of that, I have to remember that there's a continuum because along with that is physical health. If my physical health is not in line, my mental health is not in a line, my substance use is not in line. The whole engine. Right. Is not going to work properly. It was a combination of things. I was accepted in quite a, excuse me, a few programs. And in those programs I learned to journal. I got heavy into spirituality. I learned that I didn't have to accept everything that I was taught as a child, therefore I could expound on my spirituality. I could look at Buddha and not think, oh my God, you're not allowed to do that because. Right. I can look at Hinduism. I could look at the goodness in so many other things because I no longer felt strapped down. It was about then that I want to say that things really started to change for me. I had been in and out of the program of the 12 steps since 1996, and even then I still did not find that it was the main thing that provided some type of foundation. Well, it provided a foundation, but it wasn't the main thing that got me out of the hole. It was a combination of things. And lastly, if I can just kind of add to that, there was a goal setting thing that happened in there at some point in time where I started realizing that I wanted to turn my dreams into plans and my plans into goals. And it was from, though, from then on that I'm lucky that I am.
Helen Sneed: Where I am today and that you were able to. You learned that for the first time. Right, when you were. Because I didn't know anything about goal setting. I just knew about going after stuff. I, you know, until. Until really late in the game. So it sounds like you. It must have been. It sounds like it had a lot of value for you.
Stacy Jones: It was eye opening. Right. It's, it's. What is that thing when they say that? It's like a, it's. It's an awakening. Right. And here's the thing is I can understand goal setting from sports, I can understand, you know, etc. But not when it comes to me. Because if it's goal Setting for me is that selfish? I can't be selfish, right. And then I start realizing that if I can't take care of me, I can't take care of anyone else. If I can't be good to me, I can't be good to anyone else. And there became this thing, and I love that you even brought up the word mindfulness. That I started to have to slow down my thoughts to be mindful. Not mindful of a bunch of things, but mindful of what I was doing and who I was. And that's, that was a huge change.
Helen Sneed: Well, I, I think what I'm so interested in is, and I think I know Valerie, I know enough about Valerie's story is that you kind of have to just try everything, you know, because you just a bit of this and a bit of that and goal setting and mindfulness and, and the 12 steps and all that. I, I just think you have to cast a really wide net, you know, as you, if you're strong enough, you know, to keep, keep casting. But what, what got me about being sustained is that I needed to improve my relationship with myself because I was so full of self hatred and self loathing and I had a really terrible, terrible feeling about my body. It was just, just, just, just, just loathing, loathing it. And so as I was getting a little better, I got my eating disorder under control, which was just an Old Testament miracle. And I did some, did body work and I, I started developing this new relationship. And one day I was walking up Broadway feeling terrible, you know, and I saw my long shadow in front of me, and this thought just wafted up into my head and said, you, body is strong. It will bear you through this. You're going to have those thoughts come and you go, where did that come from? And then about two weeks later, I was on the bus, standing up, holding
Helen Sneed: the pole, and this other thought just came up. It was a beautiful day, just came up un, unbidden. And it was, my body belongs to me. And this was the most, probably one of the most radical moments I've ever had in my life because, because of young, you know, abuse in early childhood, my body was taken from me and I got it back. And these things, you know, this, that sustained me for the body work and this new relationship with myself sustained me for a long time. Now I also have another question, which is, did you have a moment or a turning point when you realized you had fought your way back to mental health, that you had done it? You know, by George, I've got It, you know, moment. Meryl. Sorry. Kimberly, do you have.
Kimberly Rogers: Yeah, I was just sitting here thinking there were several. You know, it didn't happen all at once. It was. As I began to embrace recovery, you know, I. I started to recognize change in myself, like you said, you know, I was reacting. Are responding to life differently. And so I think it was several years later that I remember exactly where I was sitting in 2018. I just had this thought, kind of like you, Helen, that I had not arrived, but I was actually okay. You know, I had never felt okay and never like I was just this person that was just. I just never felt a sense of okay. Also from childhood issues like you. And so that ptsd, that trauma kept me in this hyper vigilant state at all times, but I had this easing comfort that day, and I thought, wow, this is new.
Helen Sneed: And use the word ease.
Kimberly Rogers: Good, huh?
Helen Sneed: Yeah, ease. I think after a lifetime of hypervigilance, which, you know, as we all know, is exhausting, that you were feeling a sense, a sense of ease just being with yourself like that.
Kimberly Rogers: Exactly.
Helen Sneed: That's like, again, that's just. It's miraculous.
Valerie Milburn: You know, Kimberly, I'm thinking about you and goal setting and realizing, you know, when I know that I was certain you had reached a point of mental health, because I know you really well, and I remember when you said you wanted to become a peer recovery coach, and you set that goal. And I remember the day you called me and said, I've signed up. I'm gonna sit for my peer recovery certification. And I remember the day you called me and said, well, I finished the class. I did it. I'm certified. And I was like, you did it, Kimberly. I knew you had set that goal and you had achieved that goal, and I knew you were on your way and that you had reached a point of recovery in your mental health. So, you know, goal setting, accomplishing them, it is definitely a sign that we are back with our mental health when we can do something for ourselves and know that it's okay to be selfish and take care of ourselves in a good way.
Helen Sneed: Well, Valerie, you have a really interesting sort of moment or turning point.
Valerie Milburn: Oh, yeah. I was telling you. Telling you about that the other day, Helen. I. I think I was about two years into sobriety, so that meant I was pretty stable. I kind of can judge my mental health stability by that marker of when I got sober, because I got pretty healthy mentally, the more sober I got. And my husband and I have been going to couples counseling for about a year and a half. At this point, or maybe not even that long. But anyway, my husband said something, and our counselor looked at my husband and pointed at me and said, she is no longer the identified patient. And I thought, wow, that's right. I'm not. I am fine. You know, and that was the moment when I realized, you know, I'm really okay. We're all. We're all going to be okay. I'm okay. And it was a moment of, you know, just a normal moment between a couple. And, you know, it was. It was great. I knew I was going to be okay.
Helen Sneed: You were going to be okay. Now, Stacy, what was your moment? Did you have a major turning point?
Stacy Jones: December 7, 2007, at 12:35.
Valerie Milburn: Whoa. I can't wait to hear this.
Stacy Jones: That was the day that I walked through the gates and I said that I would never go back. And it was from that point forward that I
Stacy Jones: learned to laugh at the things that had happened. Like, we just laughed a second ago, right. As you were saying, I'm no longer the identified patient. You know, I had lost my identity to being just a number for a period of time. Right. And I. The goals that were the dreams that turned into the plan that turned into this thing that I felt that I had to do when those things started to manifest. The biggest part about that was being able to just laugh. Right? And then I will tell you the other part that really happened was I stopped crying. And then all of a sudden, after that period of time, for some reason, I remember being at a movie and I was crying. I'm like, this is weird. And. But I went by myself and I was like, I'm okay with that, right? I'm okay with showing emotions. I'm okay with feeling right where before I didn't want to feel whatever it was that I was feeling. So I would say that those were. It were multiple small moments that turned into this big kaboom. And again, I. I'm. I'm just so thankful. Very thankful.
Valerie Milburn: Right?
Helen Sneed: Yeah, I think that. I think we all are. Mine was a little bit like. Like. Like Kimberly. I was in South Carolina, driving away from Paulie's island, which is where I went every spring, and I was getting ready to cross the great Pee Dee River Bridge. Now it's nearly. The river's not great, and the bridge isn't either, but we used to call it the Great Pee Dee River. And as I was going across, you know, it was great. It was a beautiful spring day. And, you know, there's great music coming out of the radio and this rental car, and they had great air conditioning and all good things. And I realized that years before, I had almost killed myself driving off that bridge. And as I remembered that, I realized that I was a. I had become a completely different person and that I was happy, which is something I never, never really understood at all. And it was. It was. I'll never forget crossing the great Pee Dee River Bridge and just realizing that I was changed, which I think, Kimberly, you mentioned the word change earlier. That's the. That was the key, is I was truly, truly changed.
Valerie Milburn: It happens. We can change. And that's the beauty that we can change. And it takes a lot of work. We know that, and it takes a lot of work to stay into this new life we have been given. But before we talk about what our lives are like today in recovery, I want to talk for a second about stigma. Because, you know, we, Helen, you and I, have this podcast for many reasons, one of which is the more we talk about mental health conditions, the more we break down the stigma that surrounds mental health conditions. So I want to talk about what we've encountered along the way because I think it helps people to know. One of the things I wanted to share about some. One of the funny things is I have actually twice when I've told someone I have bipolar disorder, I have had their response be this, well, you don't look like you have bipolar disorder, okay? And, you know, if everybody says that to me again, I'm going to say, well, what does it look like? You know, that'll be a funny answer.
Kimberly Rogers: And.
Valerie Milburn: And then one other story is I was walking across the courtyard at the high school where I was teaching with my principal, and she thought the world of me had given me, you know, the reviews for the previous several years and thought I was great. And she was going on and on and on in her voice saying, these bipolar kids and their bipolar parents. And I thought I should tell her. I should tell her I live with bipolar disorder, because nobody on that campus knew. But I didn't. I didn't tell her. I had yet to open up and tell people. And I wish I had. I so wish I had. But things would never have been the same with her. So those are some of my interesting experiences with stigma. There have been many. And Stacy, Kimberly, do you all have any you would like to share?
Stacy Jones: You know, man, I remember after coming out of. Out of. I call it vacation, I like to use the word prison always. And actually being in court, being in child support court, and it was. It was brought up well, do you take your pills?
Helen Sneed: Oh, the worst.
Valerie Milburn: That's the worst.
Stacy Jones: Well, but I mean, in court with every. Are you on your pills? And I remember how I felt, and that was a huge thing. I also am a person that lives with a diagnosis of bipolar 1, along with antisocial personality disorder and a few other labels that they love to put on us. And in having that stigma or living in an environment where stigmatization is also normalized. Right. What does that look like? For me, it got to the point to where that's why I'm in the field that I'm in now to assist and help individuals to amplify their voices and break through the barriers of stigma and what that looks like. So, yeah, that. But that was one that stood out the most. Do you take your pills?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely. Definitely a form of stigma. The things people associate with medication. Kimberly, do you have an example you want to share?
Kimberly Rogers: Yeah, I'm thinking about that.
Stacy Jones: Really?
Kimberly Rogers: For me, the. The stigma. And I love what you said, Stacy, about, you know, being in this, in peer support and helping others amplify and have a voice. For me, I believe that it's. The biggest stigma is avoidance. People just that are close to me and around me just never acknowledged it or talked about it. You know, it's. It's not talked about. So, you know, there's that. That elephant's in the room. Right. But you. You know, and I. I don't know. You know, I just wish that that would be more of a conversation versus we can't. We can't touch that or we can't look at that. That's, you know, it's. It's a form of denial. And so that's the stigma that I'm thinking about today.
Valerie Milburn: It's a big form of stigma, the denial. Absolutely not being able to talk about it with people.
Helen Sneed: Well, I really ran into it in the. In the workplace without, you know, outing myself. But I was working in a big corporation, and the human resources person was new as, and I was, too. And so we became friendly. She's really nice woman, but she told me an anecdote one day about how that, you know, she had. They had been in a meeting, and a woman in the meeting had PTSD and got triggered and. And law, you know, and they had to stop the meeting and whatever, and she was laughing about it, you know, and there I was. I was in massive treatment for PTSD and not doing too well with it, you know, and really struggling. And I.
Stacy Jones: And.
Helen Sneed: And she, you know, Again, she was a nice person, but she was joking about someone, you know, and she said, well, of course, you know, we, we got her out of there and we took care of her and you know, and whatever. But I wanted to go, yeah, but it's not funny. It's just not funny. So, you know, you, it's, it's like that. Did you take your pills? You know, you just see this, these biases and, and sometimes from the nicest people, you know, but they just, they can't handle it.
Valerie Milburn: Right. It's.
Stacy Jones: And if you look at any one of us, like you had mentioned Valerie in the mall or the Domain or somewhere, not a single person could look at us and go, oh, and give us the label based upon what we were given by just looking at us with. There is no ocular proof. Right, right. I love that you talk about the bias that individuals have when they hear those words or those labels.
Valerie Milburn: Right? Yeah, it's, you don't, you don't get what you expect when you expect something from a mental illness because it's not unless you understand it through personal experience or live with someone, you, or really get to know someone one on one and understand it through open mindedness and education and caring. Then, then you don't really understand it. And it is very easy to learn about mental health conditions because everyone is, everyone knows someone who has a mental health condition. And if you just take the time, you'll learn all about it just by getting to know the people you care about and love about. Just talk, you just have to talk about it.
Valerie Milburn: So let's talk about what our lives are like today in recovery. I know, Stacy, you are very busy and we told our listeners already what an incredible array of things you are doing. And so what, what's the day like today? What does it take to stay well? What's, what does recovery look like for you?
Stacy Jones: You know, that's kind of an interesting thing because I no longer look at it as recovery. I look at it as living and I understand the difference of surviving, existing and living today. So my recovery is living and being able to live in a situation where I'm able to be of maximum of assistance for the people that I serve in my community, especially my current job and even my previous job, being able to go back in and work in the prison systems. I did that for two years during one of my graduate degrees. That was like a thing that I wanted to do because I wanted to give back, but I also wanted to be that person going in saying, hey, look, I used to be in those same icy whites. And I'm on this side now. And let me tell you how you can get there again. Showing and role modeling success. For me, the recovery means that, you know, if I don't want to get up and shower and I want to sit down and watch Netflix all day on a Saturday because I've been busting my b*** in school, that's okay. Right? And I just did that last Saturday, and I'm excited about it. Right. But it's okay to be able to live the way that you want to live. And to me, that is part of recovery. But then I don't like cliches anymore, but I will use one real quick, and that is that recovery is discovery. I have been discovering more about me on this new journey that is completely different than what it used to be.
Valerie Milburn: That's a beautiful way to look at it, that we just continue to learn more about ourselves. Sounds like a really good way to live. Kimberly, what does recovery look like for you today?
Kimberly Rogers: Well, I love that recovery is discovery, because that is so true. That is the, you know, it's. It's a journey. It's a new life, it's a new beginning. I felt like it was a new beginning. And today recovery, you know, is just not a life that I've ever experienced. It was like an awakening. And so it's. I just love that I'm. I'm pondering and thinking about recovery as discovery, and I'm just learning more about myself every day. And I'm. I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying life. I find joy. Prior, there was zero joy, so.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, and speaking of joy, you both bring joy to a lot of people, that's for sure.
Helen Sneed: One thing that we always look at in our podcast, one reason we started it, is to deal with this concept, this subject, this thing called hope. And I'm wondering with you guys, because you're both so interesting and you're so involved in life now. What is your hope for yourself today? And what makes you hopeful for those struggling with a mental health condition today, those who are still having to fight the fight, the good fight.
Stacy Jones: Well, I'll make it real quick. This December 9th will make 15 years of recovery, which is really cool. I'm in. I'm starting my second year of my doctorate program, which to me is amazing. When I say hope, it's hope that I don't run out of energy. Right. To accomplish all the things that I believe for those years I did not do because I was in that fog. But again, There is this thing about hope, and I put hope and faith together. And since I like acronyms, I'm going to tell you the acronym of faith find another individual to help. That is my hope, is that I can continue to find individuals that I can assist. And especially now that I'm working with a program
Stacy Jones: for homelessness, dealing with women and children, it's an amazing opportunity to go out there and assist individuals that they themselves are where we have just said we were at one point in time in our lives. And now they are looking for hope somewhere. Right. And I think it's just an awesome opportunity to be able to again, role model that success for them.
Helen Sneed: What is it that makes you hopeful for someone who's fighting for their mental health today? I mean, are there changes in the landscape or. I mean, you're helping people do this yourself. So, you know.
Stacy Jones: Yeah. I'm going to tell you that if. And I won't get. Not from political, but I do look at policy. I hope and pray that there is going to be more policy that is different for the availability of assistance. Right. And what that looks like, and this is what we study in school and the things that I understand now from a macro level, from a rural perspective and even from an urban perspective, there are just not enough people to assist. And then once they do get in our particular position to help, there's not enough that stay. So I would hope that from a policy perspective that they start taking mental health a little bit more serious than what they do. And it's not just about how they're going to spend their money, but spend their money effectively and efficiently to really assist people. Right. And not put them in a position to go back to old behaviors. And I say that meaning that I'm going to throw a couple dollars at you, I'm going to send you the rehab, and when you come out, it's like you're fixed. Right, Right.
Helen Sneed: Yeah.
Stacy Jones: Leave it at that.
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Stacy Jones: And then it's like it doesn't work that way.
Valerie Milburn: Right. It's called a continuum of care that we need. Yes. Where.
Stacy Jones: Yes, yes.
Helen Sneed: Well, you know, it's just what we. We all know firsthand is that it is mental illness is treatable, but you have to have the treatment and the right treatment, you know, and so let's hope that someone writes that policy and soon. Now, Kimberly, what is your hope for yourself and what, if anything, makes you hopeful for those who are struggling with their mental health today?
Kimberly Rogers: Well, my hope for myself is to continue to embrace and trust God and continue to Stay connected and build the life that, that I want and that I dream of and continue to set goals and have excitement and a future. I mean, that's my hope for myself. And I really get that mostly from working with other people as a peer support specialists, going into psychiatric hospitals and seeing people where I used to be and giving them encouragement, you know, because as peer support, we can, we can share our stories. And to me, that, that gives me hope. You know, like they say at communities for recovery, you have to give to keep. And I think that that's, that's the key for me. So when I find myself getting discouraged, and we all do, really helping someone else is, is the key to my next step or to get over something in my recovery that keeps me on the path.
Helen Sneed: That is beautifully, beautifully put. And both of you, I noticed, have gone back into sort of the jaws of h*** where you were to help others, which is just an extraordinary contribution and speaks so highly of both of you. Now this is, okay, this is your chance for a final word. Here is this question that I'm so curious about to hear answers. If you could say only one thing to someone struggling with a mental health condition, what would it be? What would you say? So either one of you guys want to jump in first, have a, have a final word.
Kimberly Rogers: You can recover?
Helen Sneed: Okay, that sounds good to me.
Valerie Milburn: It's true. I love that.
Stacy Jones: I would.
Stacy Jones: Again, I, I try my best not to use cliches. I always want to keep it on level one. But there's one thing that I, I, I like to stick with, and that is that not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you. Right? I, I think that that's a really important aspect of it, and it's being able to acknowledge someone's pain. For me, it's, I want to be able to acknowledge their pain. And in the words of one of my people that I follow. Oh, well, Brene Brown, it's like just breathe and it's like, I'm glad you told me.
Helen Sneed: Yeah.
Stacy Jones: Breathe and believe.
Helen Sneed: Breathe and believe. Valerie, do you have some, some your words of that, you, words of wisdom that you would like to, to say for someone who's, who's out there struggling?
Valerie Milburn: I'm going to tag on to Kimberly's and it's also our tagline and I'm going to say it from all four of us. We live in recovery, so can you.
Helen Sneed: Okay, well, I am, as always, I went to, to the words of someone else for what, you know, what. And I thought very hard about what what would my words, what would I want to say to someone, you know, to, to bolster them or whatever? And this is from Martha Graham, you know, the great, the great choreographer and dancer who's, I guess, one of the greatest artists that America's ever produced. And here's what she said. There is a vitality, a life force, a quickening that is translated through you into action. And because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique. And if you block, will never exist through any other medium and will be lost. The world will not have it. So what I would like to say to anyone who's out there struggling is don't deprive the world of your unique, wonderful self. We want you with us.
Valerie Milburn: Beautiful. Wow.
Kimberly Rogers: That's great, Helen.
Valerie Milburn: That was gorgeous. Thank you so much for finding and sharing that message. Oh, and thank you both Stacy and Kimberly, for giving us your time and your, your love and your words and your, your hearts. You know, what you left here with us for our listeners is just so special and so much appreciated. I just can't than enough.
Helen Sneed: I feel, I feel the same way. And, and again. And I, and, and I just, I'm so happy that I got to, got to meet you, Kimberly, because you're a legend in your own time, and we know that Stacy is. So you guys have, have really given us so much today. And, and thank you. Thank you not just for us, but for, for those who are listening who got to spend some time with you.
Kimberly Rogers: Thank you so much. It was such an honor to be here, and I just love this time.
Stacy Jones: Yes, I, I Ditto. Right? You started with it, I'll end with it. Ditto.
Kimberly Rogers: That's right.
Valerie Milburn: Thank you, guys. Let's all go out and continue to live these wonderful lives we've been given.
Helen Sneed: On this message of hope. We bring our conversation to a close. We've had the privilege of hearing about Kimberly and Stacy's incredible journeys. They are truly powerful stories of recovery, which is what we wanted to hear, needed to hear, an inspiration and delight for all of us. Valerie and I can't thank you enough for giving us such unforgettable gifts today. And I strongly suspect that both of you have more successes ahead of you. As the Native American proverb says, those who tell the stories rule the world. So I can't wait to see what you guys do next. And now we'll end our episode with a mindfulness exercise. Valerie, we await your command.
Valerie Milburn: Oh, I love that. Lead in. Await my command. We will indeed end our episode with a mindfulness exercise as we always do, so thinking about this exercise for today's episode, I was thinking about the fact that I have some major changes occurring in my life right now, and several people who are very close to me happen to be going through similar changes. And as we have supported one another, we invariably discuss our tendencies to worry, to let ourselves indulge in our fears of the future, and guess what our solution
Valerie Milburn: solution is every time. Mindfulness during our conversations, one of us often says the phrase, right now, right here. I even found myself guiding a friend through a right now, right here exercise a few days ago, so leading that exercise today seems like a great idea. Let's get mindful. We will begin, as always, with our diaphragmatic breathing. If you are driving or walking, please adapt this mindfulness exercise in such a way that it works in your current surroundings. If you can find a comfortable seated position, try closing your eyes. If it's safe to do so, we will take two diaphragmatic breaths together. I usually take about 10 to start my mindfulness and meditation practice. Let's Breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach. Hold your breath. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do so. Take another Inhale through your nose. Expand that imaginary balloon. Hold your breath. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in. Drop your shoulders. Pull your stomach all the way in. Continue with this deep breathing. Focus on your breath as you breathe in. Breathe out. Feel your feet on the floor.
Kimberly Rogers: Or.
Valerie Milburn: Feel each foot as it hits the ground. If you're walking, breathe in. Breathe out. Fully ground your feet on the floor or fully connect to the ground with each step. Tell yourself, right now, I am right here. Right now, right here. If your eyes are closed, please open them and scan your surroundings. Again. Tell yourself, right now, I am right here. Right now, right here. Bring yourself entirely into your surroundings. Into the present moment. Right now, right here. No thoughts of the past. No thoughts of the future. Right now, right here. All is well. Now, focus on one thing you can see that is pleasant right now, right here. What is pleasant about what you're looking at? Is it the color? The shape? The texture? The smell? Right now, right here. All is well. Now, focus on something in your surroundings that you are grateful for. Something different Right now, right here. Why are you grateful for it? Right now, right here, all is well. In this one moment. All is well. There are many moments when all is well. Right now, right here, all is well.
Valerie Milburn: Breathe deeply. Breathe in. Breathe out. Now, expand your gaze to your wider surroundings. Gently bring yourself back to a wider perspective. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.
Helen Sneed: Thank you, Valerie, right now, right here. And our immense thanks again to Kimberly and Stacy and to those of you who listen today. Now this is serious. We want to remind you in this time of extreme weather that excessive heat can have a strong negative impact on mental health as well as physical. And please take note that many psychiatric medications can contribute to heat intolerance. So keep an eye on this, take good care and remember that a visit to our website can be done in any air conditioned room. Mental healthhopeandrecovery.com now the coming episode has got us all fired up. We're exploring the subject of grit, the role of determination and grit in achieving and sustaining a life in recovery. This promises to be a real eye opener as we look at the practice of grit and the presence of grit in our daily lives. Please join us. Until then, I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.