And now for something different, with two remarkable guests. Anders Osborne, legendary New Orleans songwriter and musician, takes us on a intimate journey through addiction and mental illness, and their extreme impact on his creativity and recovery. Anders is joined by his friend Ben Anderson, founder of Park City Song Summit, an international conference featuring these same subjects and promoting the healing power of music and song. Join Valerie and Helen for this amazing exploration of destruction and rebirth in the life of an artist.
Anders Osbourne award winning songwriter and musician
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Sobriety, Mental Health, and Creativity: A Conversation with Anders Osborne and Ben Anderson
Episode 22
Helen Sneed: Welcome to Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Snead.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational true stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals, but we are experts. We are experts and our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery, so can you.
Valerie Milburn: This podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have.
Helen Sneed: Welcome to episode 22, sobriety, mental health and Creativity. A Conversation with Anders Osborne and Ben Anderson. The role of mental health in the fight for sobriety and the use of creativity has long been discussed and debated. The subjects are controversial, multifaceted, mysterious. So today we are incredibly well equipped to delve into these topics with two extraordinary individuals, both with a lifetime of experience, Anders Osborne and Ben Anderson. So welcome to our podcast. We are delighted and honored to have you join us.
Anders Osborne: Thank you so much for having us on today, guys. We're honored as well.
Ben Anderson: Thank you very much.
Helen Sneed: It's great to have you and you.
Valerie Milburn: Guys have been friends for a really long time and it's really great to have you here together. And I'm gonna just jump right in and introduce you, Anders. Anders Osborne is known for his richly detailed songwriting, his intensely emotional and soulful vocals, and his expert guitar work. Guitar Player magazine calls him the poet laureate of Louisiana's fertile roots music scene. New Orleans Gambit Weekly has honored Anders as the Entertainer of the Year. Offbeat, named him the Crescent City's best guitarist for the third year in a row and the best songwriter for the second straight year, in addition to writing virtually all of his own material since his first recording in 1989. Anders has contributed songs to a wide spectrum of artists, From Grammy winning Keb Mo to country singer superstar Tim McGraw and including the artists Tab Benoit, trombone Shorty Kim Karnes and Aaron Neville. Now to those accolades, I would like to add Andrew's gift for conveying through song the agony of addiction, to the longing for recovery and the beauty of healing, and for establishing through his powerful song lyrics, a place for all who struggle to connect.
Helen Sneed: All right, well, I'm supposed to introduce Ben, and I think I can sum it up this way. Ben Anderson is a Renaissance man. He's a retired trial lawyer who also spent most of his life either performing or promoting or just enjoying live music. Born and raised in Tennessee, Ben was the son of a gospel recording artist and music minister. So he began singing on church stages when he was 6. By the age of 12, taught himself piano and guitar and formed his first rock band. Attending Vanderbilt University and Pepperdine University School of Law, he first practiced in Los Angeles and then moved to Cleveland where He practiced for 30 years as a
Helen Sneed: nationally acclaimed trial lawyer. For years, his peers voted him super lawyer, and through his work and verdicts, he became a legend. Ben and his family now have relocated to Park City, Utah, where he is an avid skier, hiker, runner, and biker. He has enjoyed 15 years of sobriety. Ben is dedicated to giving back to the community and has been president or CEO of numerous not for profit organizations, including the Send Me a Friend foundation, founded by Anders Osborne. Ben is also an executive producer and co owner of the record label Fifth Ward Records, based in New Orleans. So today we'll hear about his new project, Park City Song Summit. As CEO and founder, Ben is leading the music industry in new directions of honoring the art and craft of songwriting and music creation. So I do not lie. As I said, a Renaissance man.
Valerie Milburn: Let me say a little bit about how we got to this interview. Anders, I heard your wonderful interview on the Back From Broken podcast, and there was something in that interview that grabbed me and compelled me to invite you to come visit with me and Helen. In that half hour interview where you share your journey of addiction and recovery, there's only one sentence near the end that refers to your mental health condition. And that one sentence is, he has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and received treatment for his mental health condition. And I thought, I'd like to hear that portion of the story, the mental health portion of Andrew's journey and its role in his addiction. So would our listeners. So out went the invite.
Helen Sneed: And Ben, when I first learned about your creation of Park City Song Summit. I was thrilled you have founded an entire conference based on some of the subjects that challenge me most, namely the relationship between mental illness and creativity, the power of storytelling through words and music, and the healing qualities of the song. I don't know of anyone who has addressed these issues in the unique way that you have discovered. So, like me, our listeners will be so eager to learn more about Song Summit and about your own story. So, Valerie, let's jump right in.
Valerie Milburn: Yep, let's do it. So, Anders, I know you moved from Sweden to New Orleans when you were young. And having spent some time in my own youth in the New Orleans bar scene, I know the drinking culture is a huge part of New Orleans. What was that like for you when you entered the music scene?
Ben Anderson: Thrilling.
Valerie Milburn: Thrilling.
Speaker F: It was.
Helen Sneed: Let us guess.
Ben Anderson: Yeah, it was exciting.
Speaker F: And I think there's also a culture of extended drinking.
Ben Anderson: So it's not, you know, these explosions of 2, 3 hours getting really hammered and then that's the end. So there's a positive and a negative with that, which is you learn early on to drink all day, through parades, through events.
Speaker F: Like, it's a lot.
Ben Anderson: It's more of a Mediterranean style of drinking.
Speaker F: It goes on, you know, for hours.
Ben Anderson: And hours, and you slow down and you learn to pace yourself.
Speaker F: So I think the negative side of.
Ben Anderson: That is that it gets deeply ingrained.
Speaker F: As something very positive.
Ben Anderson: It's really, really good for you because you are socializing and you're learning to be an extrovert and social and connect with people.
Speaker F: And that, you know, when.
Ben Anderson: You have addict personality like me or whatever the issues are, which we do going to get into. I think it's really hard to break from cultures like that because you don't.
Speaker F: Know who you're going to be with.
Ben Anderson: Since everybody's doing this, it's so widespread, you know, from a young age.
Anders Osborne: So.
Valerie Milburn: But yeah.
Ben Anderson: Does that answer you?
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, it sure does. I mean, I know it's kind of like if you're hanging out with everybody who's drinking and dragging, it seems like that's the normal thing to do because that's what everybody's doing. So I get that. And I know as your career took off, that part of your life got deeper and deeper. The drug and alcohol use and. Do you want to talk about that for a little bit?
Ben Anderson: Yeah.
Speaker F: So, you know, as a.
Ben Anderson: In my late teens, as you start to do more and more gigs and less of the other jobs, so I started early. I didn't go to college or anything. And so Straight out of high school, just kind of start working day jobs and then play music on the streets and
Ben Anderson: then playing clubs. Once I made that shift, there's a whole night culture that takes over. And then certain part of my personality that I had not figured out, which is I have stage fright, performance anxiety, wherever that comes from. But that's part of my being an introvert. So I hadn't worked out how to be a performer. It wasn't natural to me. So very quickly that I go to drugs and alcohol because it would lubricate, and it'll be like, okay, yeah, I don't care anymore. It was easy to perform. Right?
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Ben Anderson: But inside, I was consistently very, very uncomfortable. Every performance was. Was just really hard. It was not thrilling at all. So because I hadn't worked out why I wanted to perform, you know, which is a kind of this central question, why do you want to perform? You know what I mean? It's one thing to be a musician and a writer, but why do you want to entertain people? It's a pretty deep question once you get older to start to figure that out.
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Ben Anderson: But so I learned immediately, drugs and alcohol, I mean, it was. That was the way you did it a little bit before. Watch it while you're on stage. That gradually just became more and more, okay, let's alter the state a little bit like this. Let's get some weed, let's get some hash, let's get some mushrooms. Let's do some speed. And you start experimenting.
Speaker F: With the type.
Ben Anderson: Of show you want to put on. And you combine these two things. Not realizing or I didn't realize, I was just creating my addiction. I was designing my specific addiction for the rest of my life. I thought it had to do with music, and it was not. I thought so, but it wasn't.
Speaker F: There was an ambition that was not about being necessarily famous rich, but there was an ambition to be seen and heard, to be recognized more as a human experience than an artist, I think. And I used the means of my songwriting and the performance part to be as auspicious as I could so that I was really seen. I think back to, you know, trauma. I think there's a big portion of me that was unseen as a child. There's some deeper trauma that I went through as well. But I think the fundamental problem I had was I didn't feel seen. And today, at 56, I still. That's me and my wife. That's what we argue about. It's usually me not feeling seen, and. Which turns to her not Wanting to see me. I don't want. Like I don't want to because I've become so demanding. That drive hasn't changed from 19 to 56. There's something there that's still unresolved. So my state was pretty frantic. It was. I wrote songs, you know, if not every day, at least every other day. I'm constantly writing, trying to reflect on poetry, to express in some way what I was feeling. And so this is a very self involved, self inquiry. Was. Has always been kind of the journey for me. As drugs and alcohol took over, I realized that they want to dance, they don't want to hear my lyrics, they want to dance, they want to forget about their trouble. So then I had to make a shift. And I think as this progresses, I lose myself because I start to play for other people's needs at that time. And I don't think you can do a great job at that until you're ready to do that, if that makes any sense. I was thrown into heavy touring. You know, you get in the van, you drive 25 hours, play for two people, get paid 100 bucks, drive back again. I did those types of things over and over and over. I cannot even count the times I did that. Went back to my dishwashing job, made more money, did it again, did it again. Drove from Key west to Los Angeles because there was a record executive that might show up and you go there. It's so absurd looking back at it. Why would anyone do that? Well, I got the record deal, Sony signed me, Epic signed me. I toured the world, they send me out there. And in Paris one night, I have a mental breakdown. And I was screaming and kicking
Speaker F: and screaming in the back of the car on the way to the gig. This was the first time I knew something has to be healed. I didn't do anything at the time. And they let me out at Champs and I was rolling on the ground. It was Saturday night, it was packed with people. And I'm just screaming, kicking and screaming, holding on to a wall of a building. And everybody, the record executives, the band, they're all helping me. I'm three hours late to the performance. It's a long story, but I remember I had to hold. I had panic attacks and all this stuff. I had to hold on to a key in a door. And as soon as I let go, it would come back. So we're trying to figure out how I could have the key in my hand while performed. So this is how absurd this became. Anyway, I got through it and I Started to change my drug intake after that incident, and I did less hallucinogenics, less weed, and started doing more speed. So all it did was, it was take me to another self medication.
Valerie Milburn: Right.
Speaker F: Never addressed the actual issue.
Valerie Milburn: I know all about that. Yeah.
Speaker F: So you just, you're navigating in that small little world of self medication and never really addressing the fact that if you want to do this, if you want to entertain, you want to play music or be in this business, you have to have a strong foundation. Not just the drive to be excellent at your instrument or your craft, but. But you have to be excellent as an entertainer, be on stage. There's so many aspects of doing this for a lifetime. Right. You can't just go into it. I think I never addressed any of this. I just kept going, took breaks, had meltdowns, got overwhelmed. I got more and more irritable, more and more controlling with my environment to try to set up something that would work for me so I could remain in the same addictive lifestyle. But everybody else had to change around me. And the music business is really good for this. They'll cater to that stuff. As long as you make people money, as long as it's working, they're all into it. They give you special room, special. Everything's special. They'll make you feel really good. Well, this went on to fast forward because it's just a normal war story of drug addiction. So it's not that interesting, I think. But in the end, now I was homeless. I lived in the park. I was on a park bench. I couldn't work, I owned nothing. My wife didn't want to see me. I couldn't see the kids, who were 6 and 8 at the time. It's end of 2008 and I've been out there for maybe 10 months living in the park, and no one came to see me except drug dealers. And they would take false checks that I had stolen. And, you know, they said, what is this? That says whatever, Margaret on the check. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I borrowed the check from my friend Mark. I said, sure, whatever. So it was this whole strange existence that for some reason they kept feeding me. Well, I got lucky. They scooped me up. January of 2009, put me on a tour with one guy in recovery, had three years at the time, and another guy who was still drinking and smoking weed, but, you know, not off the handle. The three of us went out. I've been up, I stayed up the whole tour, six days, I just stayed up. And at the end of it. My friend Mike, who's still sober, still strong in the recovery community, he and my ex manager at the time and some friends in New Orleans had set up a rehab and they asked me if I was ready and I was clearly not ready. I said, nope, absolutely not. I'm all good, I'm all good. And they kept asking, and finally there was a little voice inside that said it wouldn't be all that bad with a little bit of rest. So I said, okay, I'll go, but I want a first class ticket out there. And.
Valerie Milburn: This is always conditions.
Speaker F: Oh, yeah, this is from living on, you know, the park bench, the entitlement of an addict.
Anders Osborne: I love it.
Speaker F: Yeah,
Speaker F: it's phenomenal. Now the guy on the phone, my ex manager, started cussing me out. But Mike knows, being three years sober, he knows this is the one window he had to see if he could help me. So he goes, you got it. Shake my hand. Promise you going. So I did. I said, okay. Obviously it was two stops to LA, middle seat the whole way. I had three, three flights. It was like a 14 ticket to Los Angeles from New Orleans. And I was cussing the whole way. Anyway, yeah, three weeks into it, I. I was off the Valium and Suboxone and all the other stuff and. And I started to just kind of level out. I had a breakthrough. And the breakthrough was that there was a. Like a movie starts to play in my head and I'm sitting in my stripy pajamas with two other guys in their 40s with their stripy pajama pants in the same room. And I saw exactly who I was. I. I finally understood who I had become. And after that, I think it all just changed because that's when I took therapy to heart. I took my mental health to heart. I started to listen to other people. I remember asking them after crying for hours, just please tell me what to do. I can't be in charge anymore. And I think that just opened the door to all this. I was diagnosed bipolar. Anyway, that's my story.
Valerie Milburn: I think that's great. I mean, that moment you had, that breakthrough, that honest look at ourselves. I mean, that's what it takes.
Speaker F: Yeah.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm just so grateful and touched that you shared. It's the beauty of recovery to be able to tell our story and be honest and open like that. It breaks down the stigma it offers hope. So, Ben, you know, I know you have long term sobriety. Helen mentioned that a little while ago. 15 years. And what about your journey, your road to recovery? What would you like to share that is something we want to know about you. Yeah.
Anders Osborne: So I grew up in a small farm town, farm, factory and churches right in Gallatin, Tennessee outside of Nashville. And very, very Southern Baptist, teetotaler type household. And I was always a big personality. When I was a kid, I found in my granddaddy's workshop, I found a carton of Salem Lights and I found a fifth or a handle of Seagrams. I think I was probably 12. And so I started to slip some smokes and I started to drink this Seagrams. And I love the way it made me feel. And it was immediately like I felt like a different person. Like I was bigger than myself and, and, and I was. And I love the fact that I was keeping it secret. There was this, there was this intrigue and mystery around that and like I was getting away with something that was taboo and that began sort of this process of, I would say family of origin trauma or just childhood trauma of just like, if I hide it, it's okay, you know, I'm not going to go to h*** if I ask for forgiveness. My granddaddy's doing it, so it must not be bad. And then at some point he realized that that bottle was getting down further than he was drinking it. And there were a few more smokes than when he went in there. And, and he just said, let's not tell granny about this. And so that was all that needed to be said. We didn't talk about it. It was just like, keep it secret. I'm keeping a secret. You keep a secret. And often when I, when I've led AA meetings and things like that, when I go back to sort of that beginning of what was that, that craving and that response that I got to alcohol and also just getting away with something and doing something that I was told not to do or shouldn't do, but enjoying it so much that I was willing to risk, you know, taking a pretty bad whooping from my dad or my mom if they found out I'm a pedal down person. I'm all on or all off. And for if you've got the come from the planet of addiction or mental illness or some combination thereof, having that type of personality that had always a big personality, gregarious out there and thinking that when I added that fuel that I was even a bigger bin than I, than I already was, that identity that I started to cling on to was something that I always was the biggest partier. I was like Anders said about New Orleans, I. I didn't want to just stop with one night of drinking. Why not three nights in a row? Why? Why are these people sleeping? What are they doing? Why are they sleeping? We could be up partying. Did we have fun? Sure.
Anders Osborne: But I didn't know when to stop. I didn't know how to take my foot off the pedal. I didn't understand that I had a lot of mental health challenges that dated back to my childhood and my teen years that had not been addressed and unpacked and that I was filling that hole with drugs and alcohol. And ultimately a friend of mine suggested that I try aa. And I had seven years of going in and out, in and out, and those were seven of just the worst years of my life. And unfortunately, those were seven years where my kids were growing up and my then wife needed me, my kids needed me, my partners at the law firm needed me, my friends needed me and I needed me. But I didn't know how to love myself, forgive myself, understand myself, and seek the help that I needed because I didn't realize that I had a problem. I waved the white flag, I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, this is not the guy that I was born to be. And either I've got to just end it all or I've got to find a path forward. And it was became very black and white for me, thanks to a loving and gracious higher power and some good friends that were there and stayed with me. It finally stuck 15 years ago. It finally stuck. And that's been a great journey since then.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, I love it. And I love a couple of things you said. It's so important you brought up trauma, because I know I have 22 years of sobriety and live with and recover with bipolar disorder, but I did not really get well until I addressed my trauma issues. And thank you so much for sharing that. I want to talk a little bit about the importance of treating that mental health condition in order to live in recovery with alcoholism and addiction. Because having both of those at the same time, it's called a dual diagnosis. And there's some statistics that I want to hit on real quickly from the National Institute of Health. It just talks about the importance of this. And there's 7 million adults who have what's called the co occurring mental health and substance use disorder. And 20 million of those adults with substance use disorders, of that 20 million, almost 40% have a mental health condition. And of the 42 million who have a mental health condition, almost 20% have a substance use disorder. But here's the kicker, only 9% with both the mental health disorder and substance use disorder get treatment for both. Only 9%. And for me, it took treating both my mental health and my substance use at the same time for me to get into recovery. By treating both of those, I did eventually get sober and I was able to make real gains toward my mental health. And but it's really interesting because sobriety was just the bottom line. Nothing was going to get better until I got sober. And my psychiatrist of many, many years said that until then I did not really get well until I worked the 12 steps of alcoholics Anonymous. So it takes both the psychiatrist and the 12 steps. I know that one of the things we really want to talk about is the creation of the Park City Song Summit. And Helen, you're going to take this part off because this is what you said in the beginning, a real passion for you.
Helen Sneed: Yeah, it is. It's very exciting and the I'm just going to Ben, just give you a little bit of the description that we've gotten here. The Park City Song Summit is committed to bringing awareness to to the struggles people in our communities, and in particular the music and creative arts community face as our culture increasingly deals with mental health, addiction recovery and suicide prevention in the post pandemic era. This focus also resonates with attendees. Summit labs provide a platform to discuss and explore inclusivity, mental health and addiction issues. The event provides a supportive environment that includes sober green room space, guided yoga and meditations, daily 12 step meetings, and craft mocktails. Ben, it looks to me like you have recruited stars from the music world to come to Park City, Utah, which I hear is a kind of paradise, in order to investigate and explore some of the most far reaching and sometimes difficult challenges facing musicians today. And all of this is part of an international celebration of the art form. I guess my first question is an enterprise this far reaching as this summit obviously did not spring up overnight. When did it first begin to evolve in your mind?
Anders Osborne: Yeah, so I guess
Anders Osborne: one of my character issues that I have to always be on guard of is that I don't like to do anything common, average or small. And so I figure if it's worth doing, it's worth doing big and loud. And so, you know, many years ago, before we'd even moved to Park City, we had a home here and we would kind of go back and forth from Cleveland to here. My wife had said it's unfortunate that in such an idyllic setting where you have the mountains and you have a lot of Energy and a lot of music lovers that there's not some sort of music event, multi day music event here. And you know what, when we move here, if there's still not one, by the time we come to town, we should create one. And then, then my buddy here, Anders, was playing a show in Salt Lake, oh, a couple years after that, and he loves him some. Some red iguana Mexican food out here. So after the show, my wife and I were back with him in the band and we were eating our red iguana.
Valerie Milburn: I've been to the red iguana.
Anders Osborne: Good stuff. That mole is tough to be. And. And Anders, yeah, we were talking about at the time some Send Me a Friend foundation where Anders, you know, had this amazing idea of trying to get help to artists on the road. And. But we were talking about holding an event and he's like, I just really think that something where it doesn't have to be a sober festival or a, you know, only for people that have mental health challenges or things. Because that is just the opposite of what he and I are seeking in this world. We look to not be victims. We're not victims. We want to just be included. And we want something at the bar that's different than just the alternatives of water and Coke and Diet Coke, right? Where's our line for mocktails and kombucha and handcrafted drinks that don't have any alcohol in them? And where is there space for artists that don't want to be exposed in a green room to alcohol, drugs, and things like that? And I just saw that as a starting point, right? Just like, okay, but we can even do more, right? Why don't we have yoga and meditation? He and I started to vibe on that with my wife Paige. And so that was when the universe tells me something three times. I guess I'm just hard headed. But that was two. And then I have a little recording studio here in Park City and one of my friends that owns a local music hall, he brought a guy up that had grown up in Nashville, his dad was also a recording artist. He was a musician and, and he was doing something called Songwriters in the Round with storytelling and things like that.
Ben Anderson: So.
Anders Osborne: So we got together and he was like, man, I think that would be a cool format for Park City. So between my wife and Anders, who's my, who's my spiritual wife, then my buddies here in town, it was like, okay, this seems to make sense. Like I was retiring from the practice of law. Why don't I use something to give back. So through this event, I wanted to just go bigger and bolder. And so I used the pandemic as a time to lean in and to really talk to artists and to talk to their managers and to talk podcasters and interviewers and to find out what would be some of the cool things to talk about. Not just about mental health, not just about recovery, not just about the stresses of touring, but the power and myth of song, the power of music to heal, the power of music to connect and to hopefully, you know, close some of the division that has been created in this world over many years and many generations. But certainly we've seen it a lot in the last six to 10 years. Right. I never thought I would live a lifetime to see some of the things that I've seen on my phone and on the TV and to hear the things I've heard in terms of the division and the hatred and things like that. So I can either pivot into that and just live a life of just, like, depression and go back into that mode where I was of just like, constantly going, undergoing panic attacks because I read the news and I'm. And I'm overwhelmed with that, or I can say, there is always going to be darkness in this world. What can I do about bringing more light?
Valerie Milburn: We're going to talk about that.
Helen Sneed: I wanted to ask you. We're going to definitely get into the positive, because that's the gist of our podcast, is we always want to give people hope. But I have one question about creativity and mental health. That's something that's really puzzled me for many decades. It seems like even now, that some artists are torn about seeking treatment because they believe their mental challenges are part of their creativity. And, you know this famous line, Tennessee Williams said,
Helen Sneed: I was afraid if I got rid of my demons, I'd lose my angels. And I actually know people who still kind of think that way. And then there's the opposite of it, which is Jonathan Kellerman, who's another writer, and he said, fools write books about madness being an elevated mental state or an alternative form of creativity. It's not. It's anguish. So that kind of happens to be what my experience has been. But do you feel that there's some connection between creativity within the artist and then their mental health situation?
Anders Osborne: Are you addressing me with that one?
Helen Sneed: Yeah. Yeah, Ben.
Anders Osborne: So a friend of mine, Anders, by the name of Harold Owens, who works at. He's, you know, a senior director at Music Cares at the Grammys. Right. We had a long conversation about this. A Couple of years ago. And the artist that would come to him and just say, I'm really worried that if I give up drugs and alcohol or whatever that is, that. That I won't be able to. I'll lose my creativity.
Ben Anderson: I'll lose.
Anders Osborne: I won't be able to dial into that certain space. Right. And, you know, his response is a good one because I said the same thing to my sponsor when I was new in recovery, like, what if. What if I can't now, you know, use drugs now? Because I thought that that's how I could really, like, get deep into my mind and analyze and things like that. It's like, I tell you what, just try for 90 days. Just imagine if you've been able to create all this wonderful stuff while under the influence of drugs and alcohol and under that dark cloud of what you've been living in, imagine how great it could be without them, right? And if in. If you give it 90 days or six months and you really feel like you've lost your creative spirit, great, we'll talk about it then. And never does someone come back after truly being, you know, in the throes of addiction or alcohol. That's a creative. That when it's removed, they go, wow, I sure wish I was in those dark days as an addict again so that I could try to.
Helen Sneed: It was so great. Yeah, it was so productive.
Anders Osborne: Look at all this great body of work. And now I can't do anything because I'm sober and present and have a clear mind. And so I think it's a myth, right? It's the old, you've got to live the blues to play the blues. I don't believe.
Helen Sneed: Exactly.
Anders Osborne: Yeah, I don't believe that. Oh, sex, drugs and rock and roll, you know, you gotta have those things. I think that has put a lot of our friends in the ground. And, you know, Neil Young once said, you know, somebody was talking to him about the needle and the damage done, and he said the amount of creativity that is in the dirt as a result of drugs and alcohol could have filled lifetimes, Time eternal would have continued on with the creativity that's been lost in the ground to people, to drugs and alcohol. So I think that it's a myth and it's also fear because people are worried that if they give that up, they're going to lose part of their identity, they're going to lose relationships. Like, I'm not going to be fun anymore. I don't know about you.
Helen Sneed: Be funny. People won't want me around me because I'll be so serious all the time.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah.
Anders Osborne: Yeah. Well, I have glum Lum.
Helen Sneed: Sorry. I have this. This final question for you about the summit, which I've been kind of wondering about, is what is your greatest dream for the summit? I mean, which people do you most want to reach? And what messages do you most want to deliver? Do you have a sense of that?
Anders Osborne: I do. And I would answer it like this. I hope that our artists can come every year to the mountains of Utah and take a respite from their busy touring schedule, invite their families, invite their friends, and that they can truly be artists in residence. Because I offer each and every one of them the ability to come for the entire week, whether they're performing or not, and at my expense, to put them up to have guided hikes, guided yoga, guided meditation. If they want to fish, they want to golf. I want this to be a break for them on the road so that they can literally leave here and their passion for music, passion for life is recharged and that their creativity is piqued and they have a really good hang with other artists and industry leaders and thought leaders. That would be my first thing that I'm seeking to do. The second thing is that through the power and myth of song and music, we might see healing in and around issues of social inclusivity, social justice, being more mindful and to learn more and to bring some normalcy and clarity to these issues of mental illness and addiction. So that if in some way people could leave inspired to have hope
Anders Osborne: in way, they could be inspired to think about how they might be able to get help for themselves, for a friend, or they may just better understand mental illness and addiction so that they are more tolerant, more kind, more loving and compassionate to those that have that. That would be a second thing that I would consider a success.
Helen Sneed: We've kind of reached what I think is the most beautiful part of why we're sort of talking here today. And that's. You've touched on it a bit, but that's to examine the power of storytelling through music and the healing qualities of song. I'm a writer. I'm a playwright, though, so I'm. You know, I'm very uncool in your world. But my own creative journey has been thwarted by severe chronic mental illnesses in many, many lost years. And boy, have I learned to never look back. But now that I live in recovery and can write again, I can see quite clearly how art and words and music helped to save me, not just my creativity, but my very soul. And spirit and the life force within me that needed to be reawakened. It began so early. I grew up in the country in Texas, just completely isolated. But there were five pieces of plastic in my parents living room that changed my life. And it was the recordings of South Pacific, Oklahoma, My Fair Lady, Rhapsody in Blue, and Swan Lake, along with the books. That was all it took to open up the world inside me and turn it into a kingdom. I want to ask you, can you think of a time when a song saved you? This was for you, Valerie Ben Anders. A song. Just one time in your life when you think that you were really saved by a song. So, Valerie, do you want to go for it?
Valerie Milburn: I will, unless somebody else wants to jump in. But I pulled some lyrics ahead of time, so I've got a leg up on you both. I'll start while you think. So I have two of your songs, Anders, that both illustrate to me the power of healing, the power of healing that a song offers and the power of storytelling. And I want to share a bit of the lyrics of two of your songs. And the first one is your song Black Tar. Here's a bit of the lyrics. You can stand on a rock Forsake your soul but call on your papa won't pay your bill the devil's knocking at your door A handful of gimme begging for more Stay away, stay away Black tar Leave me alone can't you see I'm moving on now this song made my heart ache for the many people I've known who died by heroin overdoses. But it made my heart full for the many addicts who don't have to feel alone when they hear this song. And that's what I mean by there's so much power in a song to make us feel connected to others. And a second song shows how a song can put into words for me a feeling that I don't have my own words for, how a song can tell my own story. And Andrews, your song Spotlight for me tells the story of my husband loving me through our pain. My husband's pain and my pain of my addiction and my mental illness. We have been married 39 years. We have this amazing marriage that survived this pain. But I could never have said so beautifully what you said in that song that describes this love story my husband and I have and the pain we went through together. And here are some lyrics from Spotlight. When my soul gets heavy and the only thing I can see Is the part of me that I don't want to see when you move A little closer? Put your hand in mine? And then you shine, baby, shine, shine, shine. Your love is like a spot spotlight? Who keeps shining down on me? You keep me steady when I move too much? Get me ready for what's coming up? Your love is like a spotlight. Thank you, Anders. And so to Helen's question, Anders, can you think of a time when a song saved you?
Speaker F: Yeah.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah. It tears you up, too, right? When somebody responds to a song, sounds. Looks like. When somebody responds like I do to one of your songs. Yeah, I can see that.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, It's. Yeah, you saw me. I kind of lost it there for a minute.
Anders Osborne: Yeah, I. You want me to go, Anders, while you.
Speaker F: Yeah.
Ben Anderson: Okay, so.
Anders Osborne: And this may not help you much, Anders, because. So when I was. Anders and I have been friends for a while now, and when I was in early recovery, a dear friend of both of ours and a guy who's been my friend for 40 years, you know, turned me on to an Anders song called Echoes of My Sins. And in that, it's. He talks about. As I slowly gave my life away, I could hear the angels sing so much louder than the thunder of my guilt and the echoes of my sins. So I. So I came to find out that Anders and I both had young children when we were out actively using, and he and I both carried that weight. And it's as hard as I tried working with my sponsors and my therapist to unload some of that guilt of not being there for these, you know, precious angels when they were growing up and not being the dads that, you know, we wanted to be. And I'll just speak more to myself now, but that connection to his songwriting, and for me to know that a guy that's my age who has been in recovery almost the exact same amount of time, who had kids the same age I did when he was actively using, and that had been like. Like the big book talks about this just tornado ripping through people's lives, that in that he could put into words the feelings that I had, and I could hear that and connect spot on with these echoes of my sins that just kept haunting me and then encouraging me, because I realized he was writing that as a healing mechanism, as both a recognition of what he had gone through and maybe what he put others through, but that also that there was hope on the other side of that, because he wrote this, you know, at a time post. Post recovery. And so it. It helped me in early recovery to know that not only was there another guy out there like me, but it was a guy Whose music I loved. It was a guy who I wanted to be connected to but didn't know and was just that feeling and then living in the mind of a junkie. This, yeah, is a song that breaks me down because there were so many times I'd be in the basement or at a house that I shouldn't be or somewhere there I shouldn't be. And I was having these thoughts that that's just who I was, that I didn't have a choice. And I can remember having calls from my ex wife and they would leave messages, them and my kids going, daddy, could you come home? And in my mind I was just thinking these junky thoughts and not letting God into my heart. Right. So when he sings that song still to this day, he knows it breaks me down. And we've talked about this because it is about like I just wasn't. I was just blocking the goodness and blocking this. Just the purity of life itself and nothing like children to just, you know, and, and, and, and a spouse that you've, that you've turned away from. And then for him to, to know the pain that he went through, to write those lyrics and then to perform those songs. And that, that was a. Yes, it was cathartic and healing for him and therapeutic and it, and it is for those of us that hear it, that connect with that. That is the power of music. That's the power of song. That's the power of connection. And I have no better examples than those three songs of darkness and light that this amazing troubadour, this songwriter, this Jim, that has added to the canon of American music and certainly the canon of my life that Anders has brought to the world. And that's what he means to me and what his music means to me and what the power of song is to me.
Helen Sneed: Yeah, I think that so much of this for me listening is, Is Anders for you, is. Is this remarkable heaven sent power that you have.
Valerie Milburn: I want to hear Ben
Valerie Milburn: Anders story of the song that saved him.
Speaker F: I was thinking about the songs and it's, it's a. I don't know if it saved me, but there are three very crucial songs and two of them, no, all three of them actually are when I'm in addiction. But they saved me. At the time there was something connecting me with a higher power in these three compositions. And one is so what with Miles Davis from Kind of Blue. That opening line, when they start, I used to be high, drunk, hungover, whatever, but I would say put it on and I would somehow feel drawn to living more. There's something I wanted. I want to be here. It was a melancholy that fit my personality so well. It was just describing tonally how my insides operate and the searching within the note and the cord. Coltrane, Dust Against Cannonball, who's so pristine and the way they play back and forth and sandwich Miles Davis. I was just remarkable. The other one is Nadine by Cannonball, which is. It's a live recording I have from the Glass House, I think, or no, the Lighthouse out in la. But it's a really upbeat just swing in number. It is so forward. And these are non lyrical songs, obviously, but they are. They're describing temperaments of a will to live, why I'm here. I'm here to be melancholy and contemplate. My job is to stand by the window or the balcony, overlook the ocean or the mountains or my backyard and think of things that may be important to others. That's my job. That's why I'm born. And there's no doubt about that. I've done that since I was little. And my dad, who's still alive, reminds me of things I've said and done since the age of 2 and 3, which I can't remember, but they all connect me to. Oh, I see. That is what I'm supposed to do. The third song is Lowell George. His solo album has a song called 20 Million Things. And that will tear me up. That d*** song. It's just the way he describes. It's like you were saying about Mind of a Junkie when he romantically describes how there are 20 million things that he needs to do, but all he can do is think of you. Which is. My whole addiction was. I thought about my wife the whole time as I was doing this, and all the things I had to do, but I couldn't fix the rocking chair. I couldn't take care of this. All the little details that you have to do to be, you know, a man or a human. Let me rephrase it, to be a human. They don't operate at all. There's not a single thing you can do except getting high or drink. That's it. So those three, they just have an enormous sacred place in my heart. Now, obviously, as a musician, I've been influenced and I've taken my. I stand on the shoulders of everybody else. There are only 12 notes. There's nothing unique about what I create. It's. It's all the same pot of. Of things that we juggle. So back to, I think, what was your question?
Helen Sneed: It Was just if you. How you have this phenomenal ability, you do reach into the hearts and minds of your listeners and your fans. And I think what we like to focus on is you give people many things, but you give them hope.
Speaker F: I think it grows. I thought about this the other day. I had a discussion with one of my band members that has been with me for a minute. I'll try to be quick. But what came up and we had a bit of a spat. It was an argument and I wasn't quite satisfied with some of the parts and how it was coming together. And this is an amazingly talented, I mean truly amazing talent. But there was something missing. And the way I described it was. Which comes from all my experience. I said last week, second row from back. There's a guy back there, his son, he sent me an email. His son committed suicide last November. He told me about the
Speaker F: songs and what they've done, blah, blah, blah. Were you aware of him? Over there in the third row was this woman. And I went through all these people that I knew were in the audience that I had had contact with through via email, divorce, going through cancer, first show in six years, etc. I pointed out to him, do you know that that's why you're here? You're not here to play a solo or to stand out or to be special. You're here to give them the song. The song is why they're here. Not even me. So to answer your question, I get passionate about it because as I get older, I start to, in small increments, understand that the gift was not for me, it's for others. So I have to tune into what it is they need. I have to constantly navigate through my ego and what they need. And I think, yes, I have a sense of it, but it comes from the feedback I get, like what you guys just gave me. That's why I cried. It's still crushes me in a beautiful way that we have this together. This is what we have. We are really, really intimate right now. And we've never met except for me and Ben. I mean, it's. It's an unbelievable gift. And that's not my creation that come. It's a much higher signal.
Valerie Milburn: And you definitely found the answer to your question when you were young, why you do this, why you're on stage. You just gave the most beautiful answer to that question you searched for when you were young. Thank you so much.
Helen Sneed: Frankly, I wish that we could go on forever because this has been such a rich and powerful encounter for Me and I know, Ben and Anders, you have shed light on the effect of mental illness on the creative process. You have brought insight and hope to the struggle of alcoholism and addiction. And you just flat out entertained us. And so we can't thank you enough for sharing yourselves with us and our listeners with such extreme open hearts and generosity and candor which we all, you know, I'm just to the age of. Please tell me the truth. I so appreciate it.
Valerie Milburn: Yes.
Helen Sneed: And so now we're going to close in our traditional manner, and that is with a mindfulness exercise led by Valerie.
Valerie Milburn: Thank you, Helen. And Ben and Anders. Thank you so much. I just. It's just been wonderful. And I just. Everything Helen said, you know, I just agree so much, and I just can't thank you enough for being here and sharing yourselves and your time. And yes, we will close as we traditionally do with the mindfulness exercise. And boy, do I have an excellent one today, because we're going to wrap up this episode with an exercise focusing on creativity. And what is mindfulness? I always give a definition. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations without judgment. Today's mindfulness exercise is called Capturing Our Creativity. Creativity is central to who we are as human beings. It's, you know, it's our unique ability to change our environment by making things. We can all build something. We can build ourselves, continue to learn, continue to grow. The universal appeal of creativity exists because we all have the potential to be creative. And one way to look at creativity is having the ability to look at the world with curiosity and wonder. And that's what we're going to do today, mindfully. So let's get mindful. Close your eyes if you can. Settle in and breathe. As always, let's begin with a few diaphragmatic breaths. Whether your eyes are opened or closed, let's steady our breathing with two diaphragmatic breaths. When you do this on your own, take as many breaths as you need to calm and center yourself. I usually take 10 to start my mindfulness and meditation practices. So here we go. Let's breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding that imaginary balloon in your stomach. As you inhale, exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do. Forcefully exhaling again. Inhale through your nose, expanding that balloon in your stomach. As you inhale,
Valerie Milburn: hold it for a second. Exhale through your mouth, pulling in your stomach. Exhaling forcefully. Pull your stomach all the way in let's keep this slow, steady breath going. Now, begin by thinking of someone you are curious about, someone you wonder about. It could be a co worker, a neighbor, a parent you see at the park. Think of someone you're curious about. What could that person's backstory be? What could that person teach you? What could that person teach you to build? Imagine you built it together. What did you create? What does it look like? Enjoy that feeling of creative accomplishment. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.
Helen Sneed: Oh, thank you, Valerie. That was much needed. So we must reluctantly bring this episode to a close. With infinite gratitude to Anders and Ben and to you, our listeners. We thank you for joining us for this unforgettable conversation. May your lives be filled and blessed with music and song. And now I leave you with our favorite word. Onward.