People living with a mental condition and law enforcement officers have this in common: they rarely make the news except when something tragic happens. In reality, there are positive stories in both communities. These communities often intersect in times of crisis. In this episode, Valerie, Helen and their guest, a veteran officer with the Austin Police Department, explore these situations and the changes in law enforcement crisis intervention.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
The Intersection of Mental Health and Law Enforcement Crisis Intervention
Episode 11
Helen Sneed: Welcome to Mental Health Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.
Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.
Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.
Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals. But we are experts. We are experts through our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.
Helen Sneed: We live in recovery, so can you.
Valerie Milburn: This podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified mental health providers with any health related questions you may have. Welcome to episode 11, the intersection of Law Enforcement and Mental Health. Today's episode focuses on the positive role that law enforcement officers provide in the area of mental health interventions and services, something that Helen and I don't see or hear enough of in the media. It's a role that we think needs to be highlighted. For example, the Austin 911 dispatch had 44,531 calls with an identified mental health component in 2020. That's right, 44,000 calls. While many of these calls were diverted to the local mental health authority or ems, the Austin Police Department responded to the majority of those calls. Of these thousands and thousands of calls that the Austin Police Department did respond to, only 3% of those included use of force. Force is defined as anything beyond routine handcuffing to lethal force. What happened on the other 97% of those calls? Providing services and support for those in a mental health Crisis is what drives our desire for today's discussion. You know, it's interesting, law enforcement and those of us who live with a mental health condition have this in common. Both groups rarely make the news except when something tragic happens. I know. And that 97% 3% statistic shows that the far majority of the time law enforcement brings support and services to a mental health crisis. From my years of presenting at Law Enforcement Crisis Intervention Trainings, I know these officers who should be making headlines for getting those in crisis the help they need. But the headlines are made when things go wrong. And in the case of people living with a mental health condition, it is too often someone who is symptomatic and struggling or in crisis or living on the streets, violent or breaking the law who gets the headlines. That is not what life is like for the majority of people who live with a mental health condition. I know many, many people living in recovery who should be making headlines for their courage and their ability to turn struggle into triumph. Now, to frame our discussion today we have some clear objectives. Ellen,
Valerie Milburn: can you share those please?
Helen Sneed: Yes. We've got three objectives. Discuss the crucial role that law enforcement is providing to the community in the area of mental health. Inform our listeners about law enforcement's interaction with an individual who is symptomatic with a mental illness. Provide ideas for productive interaction with law.
Valerie Milburn: Enforcement we are so excited to have a special guest today. Senior Patrol Officer Jamie Von Seltman from the Austin Police Department is with us today and she brings experience, knowledge and perspective to our conversation. Officer Von Seltman started her law enforcement career with the Austin Police Department in 2007. Her first assignment was on patrol in Northeast Austin. She became a mental health officer in 2009 and joined the crisis intervention team unit in 2012. Officer von Seltman took a short hiatus from Crisis intervention in 2019 and served as a full time peer support officer before coming back to her true passion, crisis intervention training. Additionally, Officer Von Seltman was a member of the APD Hostage Negotiation Team from 2010 to 2017 and still currently serves as Peer Support Team volunteer. Prior to her policing career, Officer Von Seltman received a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology from Tarleton State University. She has been married to her husband Gunther for 24 years and is the mom of two amazing young men, Tristan and Lucas. Officer Von Seltman, Jamie and I have worked together over the past few years as I have been a NAMI Central Texas volunteer presenter for the Crisis intervention trainings that Jamie led for the Austin Police Department. Jamie, it's a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast.
Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. It is such an honor. Just thank you very much, Valerie and Holland, for having me today.
Valerie Milburn: Well, it's great to have you here. Now, as our list of objectives for this episode described, one of the things we want to talk about is the crucial role law enforcement is providing to the community in the area of mental health. And we want to talk about how officers provide this effective and vital mental health, these services. One of the reasons it's important to highlight this is that many people don't even know about the existence of law enforcement's mental health officers and services. Can you give us some examples of law enforcement's interactions during mental health crisis calls? Not only so that people understand that these officers exist, but what they do?
Speaker A: Absolutely. Officers Oftentimes, well, we're 24, 7, 365 and 911 is a very easy number to remember. A lot of the times family members, friends, or even people themselves are calling law enforcement because they're just in a state of crisis. They don't know what to do. Oftentimes the officers are filling the gaps between the individual and the mental health care system. So some examples of some interactions that some of my officers have had with individuals is that we had one woman who was. She was in a complete and utter crisis. She had an addiction to substances and the police were called on her. And my officer, she happened to be a crisis intervention team certified officer, responded and spoke with her at length. At the time, she hated cops. She had had a lot of negative experiences with the mental health care system and she went on to get help. But what I think is significant about this particular encounter is that about a year later, my officer actually ran into her. And at the time, the woman, she had actually been in recovery. She became a counselor and she was sober and she no longer hated the police. So it was really, really positive interaction that I know my officer very much appreciated.
Valerie Milburn: That's great. It's really great. Any other examples you want to share?
Speaker A: Absolutely. We've had. There's a lot of times where our officers will get called to people who they know regularly. When we had our snowpocalypse, you guys probably know, referring back to February 2021, it was awful. One of my officers responded to a man who had been evicted from his home and he was a regular. So the officer knew him quite well. And of course he was experiencing a cris crisis from losing his housing and it being very, very cold and at this time the officer, it was night. And a lot of times during the night, a lot of places that are open during the day, they're closed. And so there's really only going
Speaker A: taking someone to the hospital or taking someone to jail. There's really not much alternative in between. And so given the choices that the officer had, he decided that instead of doing either one of those because the man wasn't meeting the criter for a 48 hour hold, that he was going to go ahead and pay for him to rent a room for that night. And so he took him to a hotel and paid for his. His stay at the hotel.
Helen Sneed: That's extraordinary.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, it really is. So the officers, you know, as we're saying, often provide these incredibly positive experiences. And that's what my experience has been. And I thought maybe it would be meaningful for me to share my interactions with law enforcement. And I. I had two, both of them. The officers got me the help I needed. The first interaction was with the Austin police department. And I was in a manic state. And often when I was in that state, I would leave after my house got quiet at night. I couldn't get quiet. And I would wander the city for 24 hours, 48 hours, drinking and drugging. And one time I ended up in the emergency room needing to be stitched up from cutting myself because I was engaging in self harm. And when I was at the emergency room, I was very combative, was in a manic state. I was intoxicated. I had a razor blade because I was cutting my upper arms. And I had my car with me. I had driven myself there, so I was trying to leave and could have gotten behind the wheel. So Austin police officers were called when they got there. I remember I could hear the nurse outside the emergency room talking to the officers, saying she does not need to go to jail, she needs psychiatric help, needs to go to the hospital. And the officers came in and these are the things that went well. They came in and they very commandingly but very calmly said, if you can calm down and let's get rid of the razor blade, we can get you the help you need tonight. And they stayed away from me as far as they could in that little room. And they didn't try to touch me. Now, granted, I did calm down and so things went well. And that is not always the case, I understand that. But the officers were able to work with me and help me, and we were able to find a psychiatric bed which is not always available, but there was a bed available for me that Night in the hospital. And so those were the things that went well. Now, my other interaction with law enforcement happened at the New Orleans airport. I had been told by my doctor that I needed to go back to the hospital, back to the trauma hospital in New Orleans where I had been before. And I didn't want to go. Was very obstinate, resistant. And my doctor said, if you don't go, I'll commit you. And I said to him, you've told me you've only committed 12 people in your 20 something years practice. And he said, you'll be the 13th. So they said, my family and my doctor said I couldn't fly to New Orleans alone. And I said, take away all my credit cards, take away everything that will keep me from, you know, doing anything rash, and I can fly alone. Well, they failed to take away an ATM card. And I had a layover in Dallas. And I went from. As I was going down, you know, From Gate, say, 2 to 36, I stopped at every atmosphere, got a little cash, stopped at the next bar, had several drinks, and this went on and on. And so by the time I was on the plane, I was just smashed. And when we landed, sometimes, as you know, the flight attendant will say, if you're going on to the next destination, please stay seated while the others get off the plane. Well, the flight attendant said the plane was going on to New York, and I decided I wanted to go on to New York. So I told the flight attendant, I need to change my ticket so I can go on to New York because I don't want to get off the plane here because there's a psychiatric nurse waiting to meet me. That is not a good thing to tell a flight attendant. And the next thing I knew, there were two law enforcement officers standing next to me on the plane. These are the things that went well. The officers were standing in the aisle next to me, but one was in the row in front of me and one was in the row behind me. They were giving me space to make the right choice. And they said to me again, very commandingly but very calmly, ma', am, if you don't deplane, we will deplane you. I was, as I was in the previous incident with law enforcement, immediately brought into fear, which is not an unusual reaction to law enforcement. But they were keeping me calm by not getting too close to me, not trying to touch me, not leaning over me. And I made the right choice. I stood up between them and walked off the plane. So
Valerie Milburn: the interaction on the plane went well from there. We went into a small room and they I remember this as if it was yesterday and this was 20 years ago. They backed up against the wall, gave me as much room as possible and got my brother on the phone. And that's something. When officers asked me for, you know, ideas of what could go well, I say, try to get somebody on the phone, ask, is there a family member or friend, can we call? They got my brother on the phone. My brother said, you need to stay calm. You need to do what you're told to do because you're on federal property and anything that goes wrong here will not go well. They called the psychiatric nurse who had left because she assumed I hadn't made the flight. She came back, I walked out with her and I got again to the hospital, not to jail.
Helen Sneed: You are incredibly brave to tell us these stories, Valerie. It can't be easy to revisit those horrible periods in your life. But they're incredibly valuable to us today because they provide real illumination for the subject of crisis intervention training, which is what we're going to look at now. What is the foundation of crisis intervention training in Texas? Well, as we examine it, here are some statistics to bear in mind. These are from USA Today. 61% of females and 44% of males in federal prisons suffer from some form of mental health condition. The Harris County Correctional System, and that's Houston, it's millions and millions of people. The Harris County Correctional System is the number one provider of mental health services in Texas. Now just think about that. I mean, it's one of our great crises in mental health because the jails and prisons have become ineffective warehouses for the mentally ill. How did this change come about in Texas? Well, it started with the Sandra Bland act. And the Sandra Bland act is the Texas legislation that was signed into law in July 2015. It was the first legislation that required mental health training for law enforcement officers. The act was named after Sandra Bland, the black woman who was found dead in a Waller County, Texas, jail cell. Bland's case was a highly controversial one. In 2015, she was pulled over by a state trooper and what should have been a routine stop quickly escalated into a violent encounter. The officer, who was later fired for violating protocol, said Bland became uncooperative. She was arrested and jailed and her death while in jail was ruled a suicide. It was later revealed that Bland might have suffered from depression and had a history of mental health issues. The Texas Legislature responded by passing Senate Bill 1849. The bill requires officers to complete a 40 hour statewide education and training program on de escalation and crisis intervention techniques to facilitate interaction with persons with
Helen Sneed: mental health conditions. Subsequent legislation requires an officer to complete an additional training program on de escalation techniques to facilitate interaction with members of the public, including techniques for limiting the use of force resulting in bodily injury. Now, Jamie and her work in crisis intervention are a direct result of this legislation. Jamie, tell us what it's like today. What changes have you seen in the training?
Speaker A: What I've seen in the training we have been training since about 1999, our officers in some sort of mental health and crisis intervention interactions, but it was really limited. So with the Sandra Bland act, our licensing agency, tcol, did a large revamp of the curriculum. And what I notice Most about the curriculum is it's very much geared towards what we call least restrictive appropriate means. So what that means is that ideally an officer's job is to link a person to services, allow that person to be in their own and link that person into the proper mental health services that they may need. And then of course, depending on the situation, offer them voluntary transport to maybe a facility that's appropriate or if it happens, that they are in immediate danger to themselves or others, that they be taken in on a police officer's emergency detention which is up to a 48 hour hold. And then obviously the absolute most restrictive and the last resort would be jail if the person actually hadn't committed a crime. And it was to the level that needed to happen. So we're really trying to decriminalize those who have a mental illness and we're trying to focus on officers interacting with those individuals who are in crisis in a respectful, patient manner. The training itself is geared towards teaching officers about the signs and the symptoms and the communication skills for dealing with someone who's having a mental health crisis. And we co teach this training with mental health professionals. In fact, my training, about 85% of it is taught by outside presenters. They're from our local mental health authority, which for us Travis county is integral care. And then they're also taught by, I have an individual from Adult Protective Services that comes. And then of course our guest speakers from the national alliance of Mental Illness, which we work closely with. We really focus on de escalation and the techniques that an officer can use to help bring someone down when they're very upset and in crisis. Because we know that someone who's in crisis, they're not thinking with the logical part of their brain, they're really in the instinctual part brain and they're heightened, they're scared, they're frustrated. And so trying to implement strategies that help that person come down to a problem solving level where officers can then involve the person in problem solving for themselves so that there's more buy in and the person's actually able to get into the services that they need that are most appropriate. And we even have role plays that the officers, after the course, we have role plays that engage the officer in very lifelike scenarios and have them implement the tools that we've taught them in the class. And we even invite our mental health authority, the counselors that work with integral care to come and actually observe and provide feedback to the officer's journey.
Helen Sneed: That's terrific.
Speaker A: So yeah, a lot of other things have changed. We've really been able to implement a lot of neat new programs. We work very closely, like I said, with the local mental health authority. So they have counselors that are actually assigned to police and EMS specifically to help reduce interactions with those two and reduction of taking people to the hospital when it's not necessary. We know that when we take someone on a police officer's emergency detention, that can be very traumatizing. It can also be very expensive. Visiting the er, visiting the psychiatric facility when it's not needed, can cause a lot of issues. And so bringing those counselors in, having them interact with individuals, trying to link
Speaker A: that person into services, where if they do not need hospitalization, then keeping them from that. We also have as of 2021, it's very exciting. We're one of the only cities in the nation that does it. But we have when someone calls 911, you hear, do you need police, fire, EMS or mental health? So one of the counselors from our mobile crisis outreach team, that's the ones who work with Integral Care, they are actually stationed at our Dispatch. And the 911311 call takers can then send some of those calls. They can screen for mental health when they feel like it's an appropriate call and send it over to the counselor. And the counselor can then divert that call away from police. So I do have some, some statistics about that that, that have been kind of up to date. So as of 2021, 5587 non emergency mental health calls were sent to. That's as of October 31, 2021, and they have what they call a true diversion rate of 80%. So 80% of the time, those counselors are not sending the calls back to police to respond. So those are true diversion calls that those counselors are then either speaking with the individual and sending out counselors to talk with the individual, or they're able to work with it over the phone.
Helen Sneed: Jamie, how long has this given this fourth option with the dispatchers? How long has that been in place?
Speaker A: Just since February of 2021.
Helen Sneed: Okay, well, that's amazing.
Valerie Milburn: And I also want to, I want to say that the 911 operators I know were trained, obviously were trained to handle that fourth option. Do you need police, fire, EMS or mental health? And they were trained over. They were trained during the pandemic and were trained just 10 or 12 at a time. All of the operators was a long process. And nami, national alliance of Mental Illness had their storytellers, their presenters did the NAMI presentation. I know Helen and I did some of those storytelling.
Helen Sneed: We did many. We did many.
Valerie Milburn: Yes, we did many because there were a lot of them. And the city did a really good job in training those 911 callers to handle that fourth option. And I'm so glad I had not heard those statistics. I am so glad that so many calls are being diverted and that so many true diversion, as you call them, are being kept from ending up even with the police department. That is wonderful. It's been so successful. And 60 Minutes last night actually did a story about how successful Austin Police Department has been. And that's great to get that kind of feedback and positive.
Helen Sneed: They actually said that Austin was providing the leadership for the nation. It was really, really such positive coverage. The very kind of thing we're talking about that we like to see in the media. And this actually sort of leads into an aspect of the training that you touched on, Jamie, that we wanted to focus on today, which is why is storytelling such an important part of the training? And it we know that the power of storytelling comes from the connections we are able to make as we hear the similarities of our own experiences. And as Lena Waithe said, I'm telling my story so that others may see fragments of themselves. And I know this is proven. We've just talked about it with the dispatchers. I know this has proven to be true for me wherever I tell my story. And Valerie, I know it has been for you as well.
Valerie Milburn: It really has. And specifically, I know my story resonates when I tell it as part of my NAMI volunteer work to the officers, as part of Jamie, your crisis intervention training to Austin Police Department. And my goal is to have the officer see someone in a mental health crisis as a parent, a son, a daughter, a sibling, a whole person. A person who is currently symptomatic with the mental health condition. Currently symptomatic, but capable of recovery. And when I tell my story, I begin with a quick introduction of myself as a retired teacher. I say a bit about my favorite things to do. I mention my husband and my children. I don't open with my mental health condition. I'm defined by many things. I'm a former teacher. I'm a podcaster, a friend, a woman in recovery, a wife. I'm a sister,
Valerie Milburn: I'm a mother, I'm a grandmother. I'm Nana. I'm a community volunteer. I also happen to have bipolar disorder, anxiety disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, and substance use disorder. But those things don't define me. So telling my story I tell my entire mental health journey of struggle and destruction, recovery and healing, and my life today. And this allows officers to see someone with a mental health condition in recovery, not the person the officer sees on someone's very bad, very symptomatic. Day and time after time, officers thank me for sharing my story because it gives them hope that what they do for someone in a crisis can make a difference in the long run. And I know, Jamie, you also hear these comments from officers about the importance of storytelling. Can you share any of those?
Speaker A: Well, I can definitely share that. I know that it is such a positive interaction. It really helps the officers develop a level of empathy and understanding from what it must be like for someone who's experiencing these types of crises. I know that we've had many officers who've been touched by the stories that NAMI tells simply because they have that hope. A lot of times when officers respond to something and they handle the call, they don't really get much feedback afterwards. They don't know if the person received help or not. And they just know those ones that they come into contact with maybe multiple times, that it didn't work that time. And we have to remember that we're also dealing with a very broken mental health care system that individuals have to navigate and police officers have to navigate as well. And so it can be very frustrating for the officers to continuously to come into contact with individuals, and they get kind of this idea that there's not much hope. And so when NAMI comes in and we have you and the other guests tell their stories, the amount of hope the officers feel is amazing. And they make comments to me all the time, and they're so appreciative of that closure, just knowing that there are people out there that they can help.
Valerie Milburn: Yeah, that's one of the reasons. Another reason I tell my story is that I cannot directly thank those officers who helped me, but I can thank the ones I'm presenting to for what they've already done and in advance for what they're going to do.
Helen Sneed: I think that one of the ironies of our talking about the positive impact of story is how law enforcement and the mentally ill are portrayed in the media. This is something that we all have to sort of fight against, because the stigma and ignorance can be profound. Not always, but most of the time it is. And as I recall, there was an episode in one very popular crime series where the two detectives, the good cops, were looking for a killer, and the chief suspect was a young woman whom they referred to as having Borderline personality disorder. We don't know how they found that out or if this is even accurate. Now, the young woman is clearly mentally disturbed. She's a loner who practices self injury. She has an obsession with knives. She has bad hair and no friends. I mean, she's just in a very bad way in life. Well, it turns out she wasn't the murderer, but she does get killed by him. And so the thing that I was taken by is that it just sort of like the waters closed over her head, you know, she was sort of this sad case and there didn't seem to be any hope for her. So it's just like, well, she's gone. And that's that. This disturbed me tremendously. And my own experience with my storytelling with law enforcement is I've had such a different outcome when I've made presentations to cadets and officers. Their questions seem compassionate and laced with a genuine desire to learn more. What can I do to make the connection? They ask, what can I do to help? An important question also is, what shouldn't I do? This is where we are able to say one good example is touching. We all have a desire to put a sympathetic hand on someone's shoulder because that's just the human response. But this can be very, very triggering to someone who is in a
Helen Sneed: psychiatric crisis. And so we advise against it. Now, another thing that I have found to be tremendously moving, speaking of, as Jamie did, of developing empathy, is that a number of officers and cadets have come up to me afterwards and sought advice for their own loved ones. A family member, a friend, a spouse. And for me, this has been the reality, my reality with law enforcement. A reduction of stigma and a growth of understanding and compassion.
Valerie Milburn: Well, those comments that you just shared from officers after our presentations and the ones I mentioned and the ones you mentioned, Jamie, really shows a lot about an officer's perspective into his or her role as a mental health officer. And can you talk more about that perspective? And also if there's anything else you wanted to add about the training, you know, just talk about those things or whatever else you wanted to talk about right now.
Speaker A: Yeah, so there definitely is a role for law enforcement. I know that a lot of communities have been really wanting law enforcement out of mental health. And the role an officer plays is vital. It's the whole goes back to it takes a village. It really does. It takes a village to help someone get well. And officers play a role in being part of that village. And we know that we play a certain role and that our role at some point has to end. And then the role of a counselor, the role of a doctor, the role of a medical professional needs to then take place. And so just understanding that we have this role that we need to play, but knowing when it's time to give up the reins and then let someone else take over who's appropriate. So hence why we have these relationships and these collaborations with so many different partners here in Austin. We are very blessed with a lot of resources, and it's educating those officers on what those resources are to link that person in, to again, help them get the best chance they can of getting on the road of recovery. And it may mean that I go to. I go to a call and that it's not an appropriate call for me to be taking anyone anymore. And I need to call a counselor to come and maybe interact with that individual and see what it is that that person needs. Maybe they need services, they're not able to pay for it. Maybe they need medication or the medication that they're using isn't working right. But again, just. Just understanding that in the role of an officer we do have to come in, we do have to make sure everything's safe for everyone. And we have that role of being able to implement the police officer's emergency detention. But we also have this wonderful opportunity to really touch someone's life and to be that, fill that gap that's there between the individual who's experiencing this crisis and the help that's there for them.
Helen Sneed: Well, you know, it's interesting because we also. Our third objective today is how an individual can make an interaction with a law enforcement officer most beneficial. And you've been touching on this, but we, we wanted to remind people that when you call 91 1, you are asking a law enforcement professional to come to your home to resolve a crisis. Right. They will have no information about the situation or the individual unless you inform them. And the goal of the Austin Police Department is always the peaceful resolution of crisis situations, which Jamie has made clear. Now, nami, the national alliance on Mental Illness, has come up with something they call the 911 checklist. And here's what they recommend when calling 91 1. Hold this checklist in your hand and provide the following vital information to the dispatcher in a calm and clear manner. Your name, address, where law enforcement is requested. Any potential weapons such as bats, tools, sharp objects, including items that look like real weapons or real weapons. Name your loved one and name your loved one and give the gender, age, height and weight, clothing, description, diagnosis, drug use, current or past medications, on or off prior violent behavior, past history of psychosis, details
Helen Sneed: about past delusions or hallucinations, triggers, things that have helped de. Escalate the situations in the past. Now, I find this so useful. I'll never forget. I was at a seminar on law enforcement, and the officer there said, I'm going to give you some very good advice about answering the door with these crisis calls. He said, when you answer the door, be sure you are holding nothing in your hands, he said, and let them see your hands, he said, because, well, what of course we all know is that even a cell phone can look more menacing in the moment. And I was just struck by this. This is like the smartest advice I had ever heard. And Jamie, I know you've got more tips like this for people because, you know, so oftentimes people are in this situation for the first time and it's highly fraught. And any advice that you've got would be great.
Speaker A: I think the 911 checklist is amazing and it really helps out because it can give the officer that vital information that they need. They only get whatever is told to 911 as they're responding to the call. But in addition to that, I would say that just giving the officer some ideas for how they could build rapport. Anything that your loved ones may find exciting or to talk about that they interest them. Because as we teach our officers that when someone's in this crisis state, you really need to try to help them come down from that. And one way that we do that is to build rapport. So I can give you an example of that that I myself used. Myself and another officer from the CIT unit were asked to. To come while code enforcement cleaned up a woman's property. She had some hoarding behavior, and unfortunately, there was a lot of overgrowth in her yard that had kind of spilled over and they had to clean it up. And so myself and my partner went out to speak with the woman, and she had had some very negative interactions with code enforcement and law enforcement in the past. And she was very resistant. She was very angry. She was yelling, she was screaming. She was asking everyone and for our names and information, she was writing everything down. And I was trying to speak with her, and it just. It didn't seem like it was working very well. She would just, you know, turn away from me. It seemed like there was a block. And so as I'm standing there with her, my partner went to go talk to one of the law code enforcement officers, and she starts to walk towards the back of her property. And so because of. I don't know what's on her property, I don't know if you know, what her intentions are, if there's any weapons or anything like that. I just start to follow her. And as we're walking towards the back of the property, it starts to get very overgrown with brush. And my little. My little secret is that I am petrified of snakes. And here in Texas we have a lot of snakes, a lot of. A lot of nasty, venomous ones. And so I start verbalizing this. This nervousness about there possibly being snakes. And. And it was like a flip. A switch was flipped. It was amazing because all of a sudden she just started talking to me about her encounters that she had had with snakes and how she had caught a snake. And it was like this wall just came tumbling down. And I was able to talk with her and we continued to talk about snakes and then we started talking about other things. We started talking about her and her life and. And some of the furniture that she had around and how she'd accumulated it and things like that and was really able to then create a bridge for her. And I. So what I'm saying is that when officers are given the ability to talk with someone, that we encourage them to keep trying, don't give up, keep trying. I do know also that our officers use various tools on our tool belts, de escalation now being one of them. But we also have handcuffs. And handcuffs tend to make people very nervous. And when I have community meetings and I speak with the public, I try to ensure them that this is just a tool. And if officers are using handcuffs, it does not necessarily mean that the person's going to jail or going to be taken to a hospital. It may just be the officer using them. Them to control everything that's going on and calm things down so that they can then build rapport and speak with the individual and find out what it is that needs to happen.
Valerie Milburn: I think that's really important to say because you're right, that would be a very scary thing to have happen and to know in advance, like just hearing you say it, that that doesn't mean it's going to lead to an arrest in jail, because until you told me that when we were talking earlier,
Valerie Milburn: I didn't know that. And so that's really good information. And that is a de escalation technique that people would not think is to de escalate. So thank you for sharing that. Another thing about rapport I've heard so Many officers say the officer himself or herself loves dogs. And so we'll say, oh, your dog. I love your dog. What kind of dog is that? And can start a conversation. And. And it's just connecting on a human level is so important. And yes, who doesn't usually share a fear of snakes, I hate them. So I'm right there with you. And I love that, trying to connect. And it's that empathy as well. And we share a Brene Brown wonderful little video on empathy that talks about sometimes the most powerful thing you can say is, I don't know what to say. I'm just so glad you shared that with me. And sometimes that's all we need to do, is listen and say to someone, I know this is hard. And that can be so powerful. And I know the officers have often said that. They tell me they can say that and say to a family member. Because we also haven't addressed what it's like for the family members who are involved in the call. And that's something officers are trained to do as well, is how to help the family member that is there involved with the crisis as well for the individual who's struggling. And so that's a whole other aspect that I know officers are being trained to deal with. And that's really important, too. And I cannot believe that we are closing our discussion today. And Jamie, is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up? Any last thoughts?
Speaker A: Yeah, just thank you both very much for this opportunity. I very much enjoy speaking with the public and trying to make the job that police officers do as transparent as possible because I think that helps alleviate fear. And I definitely don't want people to being fearful to call when they need the police. Also, I would just say that when the officer's there and they come making the officer your partner, working with the officer and trying to help that officer then with your loved one, if it is your loved one, but understanding that they need to be the officer, part of their responsibility is everyone's safety. So that may be even including your safety. And at the time, you may not feel like that's the most important thing. And you may have a certain idea of how you want the interaction to take place. It's just making the officer your partner, trusting the officer and asking the officer after the fact that, why did you put my loved one in handcuffs? If they're not offering up why they did something, asking those questions and having them have a conversation with you so that, you know, next time and maybe next time there can be things that are implemented that would enable you not to have that kind of interaction.
Valerie Milburn: That's great advice. Well, thank you so much, Jamie, for being here. It's just so been really wonderful of you to give your time today and all your excellent advice and your perspective from the officer's point of view. So we are at our traditional moment of our mindfulness exercise, and I always give a definition of definition. What is mindfulness? Mindfulness is the practice of being hyper aware of the moment it is being in the present. Acknowledging what you are thinking and feeling and accepting it without judgment. Being mindful is about immersing yourself in the present moment to the extent that you are fully aware of everything you are experiencing in that moment. Today's mindful exercise is called Mindful Appreciation. Now, the point of this exercise is to simply give thanks and appreciate the seemingly insignificant things in our life. You know, the things that support our existence, but rarely get a second thought within our busy days. Let's take time to notice something in your day that usually goes unappreciated. This can be an object or a person. It's up to you. Here's some examples. Electricity
Valerie Milburn: powers your coffee pot. The mail carrier delivers your mail. Your clothes provide your warmth. Your nose lets you smell the flowers in the park. Your ears let you hear the birds in the trees as you take your walk. Sometimes we take these things for granted. So are you ready to get mindful? Here we go. Think of an object or a person that is part of your everyday life. Something or someone you may take for granted or underappreciate. We will call this your gift. What's your gift you want to fully appreciate right now? Have you thought of one? Hold it in your mind. How did your gift come to exist? For example, what went into making the clothes that keep you warm? How did your gift come to exist? Take time to properly acknowledge how this gift benefits your life and the lives of others. For example, how comforting is that coffee your barista makes for you? And how many people each day does he or she make happy? Acknowledge how your gift benefits your life and the lives of others. What would your life be like without your gift? Notice the finer, more intricate details of your gift. Let's take 30 seconds to fully appreciate your gift. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me. If this exercise resonated with you, take it to the next step tomorrow. Try to identify several of these gifts. Write them down. Take time to fully appreciate each of them in the manner we just did.
Helen Sneed: Thank you, Valerie. That was excellent. And we're sort of in a season of gratitude and thinking about gifts and I'll use this one in the weeks ahead. This closes our episode. We hope you've learned as much as we did about the progress and optimism to be found with law enforcement's interactions, training and new perspective. Jamie, thank you again. You just opened up a whole new world to all of us today. Our next episode will be about surviving the holidays. It's an intense time of year and can be really, really challenging for those of us with mental health issues. And we're going to be looking at the pressure of New Year's and its aftermath. You know, when you wake up and it's January 1st and you have the weight of the entire New Year on your head.
Valerie Milburn: Thank you to those who have joined us today. We love you, our audience, and as always, we are appreciative of you spending time with us today.
Helen Sneed: We leave you with our favorite word. Onward.