The Need for Grit and Determination in Achieving Recovery

The Need for Grit and Determination in Achieving Recovery

Episode 34

Helen Sneed: Welcome to Mental Health, Hope and Recovery. I'm Helen Sneed.

Valerie Milburn: And I'm Valerie Milburn.

Helen Sneed: We both have fought and overcome severe chronic mental illnesses. Our podcast offers a unique approach to mental health conditions. We use practical skills and inspirational stories of recovery. Our knowledge is up close and personal.

Valerie Milburn: Helen and I are your peers. We're not doctors, therapists or social workers. We're not professionals, but we are experts. We are experts in our own lived experience with multiple mental health diagnoses and symptoms. Please join us on our journey.

Helen Sneed: We live in recovery.

Valerie Milburn: So can you this podcast does not provide medical advice. The information presented is not intended to be a substitute for or relied upon as medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. The podcast is for informational purposes only. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any health related questions you may have. Welcome. It's Valerie. Before we launch into today's episode, Helen and I have some huge exciting news to share. Mental Health, Hope and Recovery has been named a finalist in this Signal Awards, the National Awards for the Podcasting Industry. The awards honor the best podcast in a variety of categories and yes, Mental Health, Hope and Recovery is a finalist. Our episode Parenting Skills for Symptomatic Parents is a finalist in the Family and Child Raising category and Helen and I are honored to be named a finalist in the Signal Awards. One of the awards in our category is the Listener's Choice Award and for that we need your vote. Please. Voting is easy. Go to vote.signalaward.com that's vote.signalaward.Com type mental health, hope and Recovery in the search bar and follow the prompts to make it really easy. The link to voting is in today's show notes. Helen and I thank you for supporting us by listening these last two and a half years and now for supporting us by voting@vote.signalaward.com thank you. And now onto the show. Welcome to episode 34, grit in the pursuit and achievement of recovery. Well, Helen, we are here to talk about grit. And I want to start out by saying getting ready for this episode was an example of grit because we did it while you were having Covid, recovering from COVID and relapsing with COVID So congratulations, you gritty girl.

Helen Sneed: The martyrdom is complete.

Valerie Milburn: So, well, before we had that example of grit, how did we get interested in this topic to cover today? Well, it was very interesting. You know, I have these conversations with our friend Eileen. Our listeners know Eileen. She's been on two episodes and she and I have these morning conversations a couple times a week. She didn't know I was reading the book Grit by Angela Duckworth and she started talking about grit and her focus was about when we use it, how we use it, do we have it,

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Valerie Milburn: what was our journey with it. And I said, you can't believe this, but I'm reading the book Grit but by Angela Duckworth. So you and I started kicking it around and decided that we really wanted to cover this because it is so interesting, particularly when we think about it in relation to mental health.

Helen Sneed: Well, I think that again, it was, it was ironic because both of us were reading this book unbeknownst to the other at the same, the very same time.

Valerie Milburn: Right.

Helen Sneed: So it was meant to be. And it's been this amazing experience to delve into the topic of grit in our lives, in society. I mean, it's something I'd never looked at. And Duckworth, the author, defines grit this way. Grit is a combination of passion and perseverance for a long term goal. Boom. Well, that's very, it sounds very simple, doesn't it? Well, we are incredibly grateful for her brilliant book and what we learned from her and how she inspired us to, to apply the concept of grit to the subject of mental health. And as you'll see, the role that grit plays in the battle for recovery is not black and white. We came on that pretty fast, don't you think, Valerie?

Valerie Milburn: Yes, we did.

Helen Sneed: It is full of contradictions and we're going to explore some of them today because it's, it's just one of the, it's just one of the important offshoots of this subject.

Valerie Milburn: Yeah, it is. And you know, I had been familiar with grit For a long time since I developed a curriculum and ran a high school social emotional learning program. But I hadn't thought about it in the ways we have examined it, you know, getting ready for this, particularly those contradictions that, you know, just when do I go forward and how do I apply it and staying healthy? And, you know, we talked about when do we know which way to go, you know, going forward with that hard work and determination. And we kind of came to the conclusion that the answer is often led for me by an internal compass. And how we access that is also something we're going to talk about today.

Helen Sneed: Yes. Because I'm still hoping that you will be generous enough to loan me your compass sometime in the future. Anyway, here, just. Here's some basic definitions of grit. Britannica dictionary says grit is to have or show a lot of courage and determination. And the Webster dictionary is even more brief. Grit is to have courageous persistence.

Valerie Milburn: I love that one, Angela.

Helen Sneed: Yeah. Angela Duckworth, who is, you know, now our. Our authority on this, says grit is about having an ultimate concern, a goal you care about so much that it organizes and gives meaning to about everything you do. And grit is holding steadfast to that goal even when you fall down. Now, as Nelson Mandela said, don't praise me for my successes, praise me for the times I fell down and got back up. So grit is not about being more courageous, more talented, or more intelligent. It's about being more consistent. This is a word you're going to hear a lot today. Grit comes down to your habits. It's about doing the things you know you're supposed to do on a more consistent basis. It's about your dedication to daily practice and your ability to stick to a schedule. Now, here's what the celebrated philosopher Dolly Parton has to say about grit in her life. Above everything else I've done, I've always said that I have more guts than I've got talent.

Valerie Milburn: I love that.

Helen Sneed: And I just think that says it all. So just today we're going to look at again, the definition and then the roles of grit in our lives. We're going to examine grit as a key aspect in the battle for mental health, because, of course, that's why we're here. And we're going to be telling our personal stories of grit and recovery.

Valerie Milburn: And interesting that the role of grit in our lives, Helen, that role is very different.

Helen Sneed: It is very different. And I'm amazed. Again, I don't know which one of us is alive today. But anyway, we're going to investigate this. But I first want to cite the story of a high school student named John Irving. Now, his father was a teacher at a very posh, elite boarding school in New England, and John was allowed to enroll because he was a faculty kid. But very soon he discovered the hard facts. Many other students were smarter, with higher SAT scores, better educated, and far stronger in their studies. Now, he could have quit, right, because he just felt so diminished and so second rate. But instead of quitting, Irving

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Helen Sneed: decided that he would have to just work twice as hard to make it with such competition. And that's exactly what he did. For his great dream was to write books. And with his passion and determination, his grit became his guiding life force. And he kept his eye on the long term goal. Well, no one could have imagined how far his grit propelled him. For John Irving went on to write the World According to Garp and many other brilliant novels. From his difficult beginnings, he simply outworked most writers and he became one of the most celebrated authors of his generation. Now, I think John Irving is the perfect example of a definition that Duckworth makes early on between two kinds of talented individuals, naturals and strivers. The other students in Irving school may have had more native talent and raw abilities, from their SAT score to their IQs to whatever she calls them, naturals. They're more obvious. You think, oh, they're going to be great successes, right? But the people who often succeed in actually achieving their goals over time, she calls strivers. And like John Irving, they may have had less innate intelligence and potential, but they have the grit and stamina to stick to their goals and to never quit. They never stop striving. So, Valerie, you have really been looking at this, some really interesting in depth studies and statistics about grit and its impact, especially on mental health. So tell us what you've learned.

Valerie Milburn: I will. And I've only have a few that I'm going to share. As usual, I got deep into it and I'll just chosen the highlights. And as you mentioned, grit is a significant predictor over and above IQ regarding successful outcomes in education. And a series of studies by Angela Duckworth suggested that grit, as determined by the GRIT scale which she developed, showed that these successful outcomes include higher levels of education and higher GPAs, grade point averages. So it's not just succeeding, it's succeeding with lots of education and lots of success, even in grades. So, and the, this is really interesting. The grittiest people also make fewer career transitions, and that is an important thing for mental health because consistency and lack of change is something that really helps my mental health. Another study by Duckworth conducted was conducted at West Point Military Academy in order to look at how well grit would predict who would stay for the entire program. Although West Point has a rigorous admissions process, about 1 in 20 cadets drop out before the first academic year even begins. So as part of the study, the 20, each of the cadets took a short grit questionnaire when they first arrived. This grit score was actually a better predictor of who would stay than any other measure West Point looked at. There have been similar findings with many other groups, including the national Spelling Bee contestants and first year teachers in really tough schools. And that study with the National Spelling Bee contestants is a fascinating study in her book.

Helen Sneed: Oh, I think so.

Valerie Milburn: Yeah. It's really great. So when one considers individuals of equal talent, the grittier people do better. Now, this is really something, Helen, you and I are just fascinated by, and it's what we call the 10,000 hours philosophy. And you know, at one time we've all seen an athlete, a student or musician that we've been impressed by and whom we would label talented. Well, talent's only a part of the picture. And in his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell talks about this 10,000 hours of practice required to excel at a particular skill. And in his book Outliers, he examines this 10,000 hour practice as a determiner of success. And he profiles some of the most successful people in a wide variety of careers. And they have all had 10,000 hours of practice in their talent to achieve their success. Another really interesting quote is from the great coach John Wooden, and he says, I believe ability can get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there. And I really like the concept of character being attached to grit. And here's a study specifically about grit and mental health, one with great findings about the importance of grit in improving

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Valerie Milburn: mental health. So a 2022 study published in the National Library of Medicine determined that interventions designed to improve grit could play an essential role in the prevention of adverse mental health outcomes among university students.

Helen Sneed: Well, that's remarkable that again, only you would know that grit had become officially a field of study. But isn't it great to see that they are looking at how it has an impact on those with mental health challenges? But I think that, you know, I always love to hear the statistics that you give and to see the overview, but I also also love to hear the personal story of an individual. And that would be you. And I'm hoping that you can tell us about something about grit, especially in.

Valerie Milburn: Your early life I can. And sum it up, I was a gritty kid. I was really gritty and I was looking back thinking about an early example I could share. And I loved sports. In the fifth grade I had a dear friend with whom I spent tons of time, most of it at her house, because I loved to be there. And I was really close with her family. They had kind of adopted me and they were a really athletic family and were involved in all sorts of organized sports, something my family didn't have me involved in. My friend's family included me in a basketball league. And my first game was about the most exciting thing I'd ever done. But I didn't know the rules and I had no idea that girls played half court basketball. I mean, it was 1969 and I had only seen high school, college and professional basketball games, obviously all male in 1969. I mean, they didn't play half court. So I made all sorts of mistakes in my first game of basketball and I was constantly whistled by the refs through that game. But I had played basketball in my driveway on our home hoop daily for years, spending hours and hours for years shooting hoops and doing these self designed ball skill drills. And I was good, but I didn't really know those game rules. However, my performance in that game did not deter me. I was determined to learn and to excel in basketball, and I did. By middle school, I was a top athlete in volleyball and basketball and soon a heck of a tennis player as well. And this attribute of grit helped me reach my goals for years. I got my first job at age 15, bought my first car at 16, graduated high school in three and a half years, moved to Austin at 17 to enter the University of Texas. And my life was filled with this type of gritty success until it wasn't. I got sick. I had struggled with mental illness and substance abuse without treatment for 20 years when I had a complete mental breakdown at age 34. And I lost the ability to access my grit in a positive, healthy way for five long years.

Helen Sneed: Well, that's a remarkable story. And again, nothing that you would say that connects you to, to grit would surprise me having knowing you as I do.

Valerie Milburn: You know, we both have gotten here through different paths. And your story, I know, is a different path and your grit, like I said, is different than mine. But we both have survived horrific mental health symptoms and lots of treatment. And it takes grit to get where we are. But I want to hear your journey.

Helen Sneed: Well, I, as you know, my early life is so dodgy that you Know, I have so few memories before the age of eight that I can be brief about grit. In my early days, I had none that I can think of. And I have dim memories of being afraid, you know, of everything and everyone out in our remote country place. Except that I loved books and animals and made straight A's. Now, when I was nine, we moved and the world opened somewhat and I discovered humor. If I was funny, people would pay attention to me in a good way. I loved making people laugh. And that was my first experience with my own grit, believe it or not. My determination to be the applauded center of attention. Okay, this is kind of embarrassing, but it's true. It was unstoppable. I did it despite my fears, and I worked at it constantly. And later I discovered that my writing too gained approval. So I learned

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Helen Sneed: to work hard at these things that I had come to crave. Now, besides grit, it was the first self respect I had ever known. And I think the two are sort of intimately combined now. Unfortunately, much of my young life was sort of grit free. I pursued popularity and became a master at pleasing others to the, you know, to totally. To compromising myself. I could be easily distracted and hurl myself into too many activities and social relationships. So it really was a mixed bag. I mean, the great secret of my life is that I was miserable inside, depressed from the age of four. But I gained these skills and attributes that allowed me to function over the fear and depression that seldom subsided. In fact, I wrote and starred in my first play when I was nine. And naturally it was a comedy. And, you know, it really was kind of funny. And I had a beautiful white horse named Sheba, who I rode like a demon through the gorgeous hills surrounding Austin. And on Sheba I felt free and unafraid. It was wonderful. Now, as I look back, the words of George Adair come to mind. Everything you've ever wanted is on the other side of fear. I just wish I'd had the grit to get there, you know? Now, I have said many times that I need people and structure in my life in order to function. School did that for me until I was 21. I was highly competitive from an early age and became an overachiever in many areas. Too many, really. I was so insecure that I needed to be all things to all people all the time. I wanted to know all kinds of people, and I had more friends than I could keep up with. And I had a passionate intellectual curiosity. This wide interest, from literature and history to an active social life to went on Forever. To travel to politics, to languages, to music, and of course the theater. I was hugely ambitious and decided that I would become a great actress. Now, by the time I went away to college, the dream had become something of a. Well, maybe a possibility. I became the campus star with many productions, roles and the prizes and reviews to bolster my goals. I wanted to go to New York City and establish myself in the toughest city in the country. School did this all for me. And although I didn't know it, the daily suffering that I endured wasn't normal. But how was I to know? I thought everyone was miserable inside and just led a double life. So here's what happened on the last day of my last college class. It was an English literature course that I loved and the professor had strongly encouraged my writing. So the last time I left the classroom and walked across the campus and suddenly I began to weep. I stood under a beautiful oak tree and had one of the bitterest insights of my young life. For I realized that I cherished and respected books and writing more than anything. I wanted to be a writer, not an actress. Writing lasts. I saw so clearly that I had wasted my education for the instant gratification of acting. The attention, the audiences, the laughter, the applause, the critics approval, the sheer short term pleasure of live performance, which is a fine thing, don't get me wrong. But books were my earliest passion as a lonely child. I honestly believe that books have not only enriched my life, I am certain that books have saved my life again and again. So there I was, seeing for the first time that writing was the creative power I most wanted. It was a warm, balmy spring day on the Tulane campus in New Orleans and I cried under that tree as regret and self loathing lacerated my heart. I graduated the following week with another big theater award. I went back to Texas and fell apart within a matter of months. No school, no structure, no people. I stopped functioning altogether and went into a two year depression. My winning hand that I had been dealt was so flimsy, the cards blew away and disappeared. As I stood weeping under a majestic tree on a perfect spring day in New Orleans. My life was over.

Valerie Milburn: But it wasn't. I'm sure it felt like it at the moment. My gosh, that's just such a vivid picture of what you went through. You related it so beautifully, Helen. Thank you for talking about that.

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Valerie Milburn: And you know, a couple of things hit me while you were sharing. That one was how much effort you put into learning to be funny. It made me think of the 10,000 hours, because you are funny, you know, and I can see, you know, the humor developed for so many reasons, and. And I'm so glad it did because I. I love being with you for many reasons as well, but you are very funny. We're going to look at a couple of what ways that grit can support us in our recovery. That's being successful is staying in recovery and a healthy way to live. And I think the first one we're going to look at is goal setting. Right, Helen?

Helen Sneed: First of all, I hope you'll visit our earlier episode on goal setting. The qualities of grit can make an incomparable impact on pursuing your goals in a manageable, disciplined, continuous track over time. And grit can help you overcome setbacks that are inevitable for us all. And one thing that's important is commit to your goal by putting it in writing. So there it is, you know, in black and white. And by breaking your goal into small, manageable steps, you won't become overwhelmed. You can stay the course. As Confucius said, it does not matter how slowly you go, as long as you do not stop. So the do not stopping again, I think, is a great challenge for so many of us. Malcolm Gladwell makes another important point. He said success has to do with deliberate practice. Practice must be focused, determined, and in an environment where there's feedback. Well, that feedback really, really resonated with me because when you're pursuing a goal, the responses of others can help support you and inform your efforts and even help you shape them. You know, when you need that kind of support. So remember that having grit doesn't mean you have to go it alone.

Valerie Milburn: Right? You and I thrive and blossom through our feedback with each other. It's so great what improvements we make in whatever we're working on as it goes back and forth. I mean, that's just such an important example in my life of feedback being the major factor many times in achieving a better product or healthier response. So that leads us into relationships, because feedback is certainly a form of relationship. And this is an example of structure and discipline being part of the success of a relationship. And structure and discipline, as we know already from our definitions, is grit. So this example is about couples therapy with my husband. The first time. My husband of 40 years. Now, we just celebrated 40 years a couple of weeks ago.

Helen Sneed: Congratulations.

Valerie Milburn: Thank you. The first time we went to therapy, we had been married for about 10 years, and we went weekly, weekly for 18 months. That is. That's a lot of determination and structure and discipline. And then nine years later, we Went to therapy again for weekly for two years and our appointment was at 6am on Tuesdays. Never forget that.

Helen Sneed: That is so noble.

Valerie Milburn: Yes. Oh my gosh, we learned, we learned and grew so much through that two year experience. And I wouldn't take back those 6am Tuesday mornings for anything.

Helen Sneed: Well, I think that when, again, if you look at these, the, these traits of grit that we keep examining and reiterating, when you talk about your relationship, relationship with your, you know, couples therapy and in your marriage, you talk about not quitting. How many years did you say you're celebrating?

Valerie Milburn: 40.

Helen Sneed: Okay. You haven't quit for 40 years, which not many people in America can say that anymore. I don't think now what another aspect of, of again grit and dealing, trying to help people who are struggling for recovery, you know, make fighting the good fight is that we, it does have a lot of impact on treatment methods. I mean it comes to bear on them, you know, as you go through your treatment and try to make it work. And Valerie, I think between you and me, we have had every, every form of treatment known to woman. Maybe not to man, but to woman for sure. I think so. Don't you think? Yes, but I wanted to just, I thought, well, I'll just focus on one. And so for me it was body work. Now this is something that I did twice a week for over two straight years and I have to say I hated it. I mean I just absolutely hated it every time. It was so triggering

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Helen Sneed: that I, and I just come to dread going because I knew that I'd leave there triggered and it would ruin the rest of the day. But anyway, I sometimes would just cancel and not go. But I always ultimately went back. You know, I didn't quit. Why? I'm not sure, but I think that intellectually at least I knew that so much of my problem, my mental problems were based on my relationship with my body now and the trauma that was, that was, that was buried in it, you know. So it wasn't until later, you know, after I had finished the treatment and you know, I didn't even really like the woman who I worked with. But anyway, it wasn't until later that the remarkable benefits became obvious to me of what the impact this had had on me and my body and relationship with it. They were life changing and a large boost in my ability to recover. Now there's another place where the concepts of discipline, doggedness, grit, hard work and long term goal setting are very, very conspicuous. And they are the bedrock of two of the most important practices of some of the most phenomenally successful treatment methods there are, and one is cognitive behavior therapy, and the other is dialectical behavior therapy. Now then there is creative work, creativity, which is so important to all of us. And I, as I've said, wrote a play in late life, as recovery was unfolding for me. And I'd had opportunities before, but at this point, I said yes to my dearest goal. And the opportunity that came was because I had done the work over time, I had stuck it out. And this past year, as the theaters reopened after the pandemic, I actually wrote a new play, a one act, and entered it in a huge new works festival. And I also had the chutzpah, don't ask me where it came from, to perform the play myself. So there I was, like, when I was nine, I was starring and writing the play. Now it was named one of the best plays of the week in the festival. And this was to write and perform after a long hiatus, was just joyful.

Valerie Milburn: Joyful for you and joyful for everybody who got to see it. And congratulations again on that reward, on that award. So the next area we want to look at is work and career. And I've got a great example of the structure and discipline part of grit through my career here. And this one was when I began teaching high school. I started teaching the year I got sober, when my mental health was just stabilizing. And like I said, one way to look at grit is building. One of our definitions was building the daily habits that allow you to stick to a schedule and overcome challenges and distractions again and again and again. Well, it took that kind of grit for me to get through that first year of teaching. I did it by building a solid routine, building daily habits. I scheduled work, children's sports events, AA meetings, essay grading, lesson planning, sleep, literally put everything on my calendar. And I stuck to my calendar. And I also built a work support team. That feedback you were just talking about, Helen, I built that support team because my first year of teaching was hard. So I needed a routine for what to do when I was overwhelmed. And I said no to many people. And we'll talk about that in a minute. Another place where we talk, where grit came in handy for me and we talk about structure and daily habits and discipline with school. And I can sum that up in one sentence. I was self supporting, working my way through college, the University of Texas, completely self supporting. And that took a lot of grit.

Helen Sneed: It's very impressive. And it's, again, it's, it's quite a Wonderful thing for you have done, to have done and especially when you were leading your own double life at that time, big time. Now another thing, I guess this will be the sort of the last thing that we want to look at in terms of the impact on, on mental health is that thing that Valerie and I talk about all the time with this healthy daily living. And this gets into diet and exercise and sleep. And I came to so late to healthy living. I mean, I, I simply didn't practice it. I, I rejected it. I, I just believed in breaking the rules and you know, if I wanted to be thin, I starved myself, that kind of thing. But the thing that I loathed the most was any advice to exercise.

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Helen Sneed: Now at the time, I was extremely overweight, I smoked heavily and my eating disorder had been out of control for years. And everyone told me how beneficial it was in fighting depression and all these other illnesses that I had to fight. But you know, I was so ashamed and so angry because my body was so messed up in it. I just, I, I just, I hated it and it was such an embarrassment to me. But one day after all this time, a group leader said, helen, could you just walk for five minutes a day? And something clicked in my head. And you know, the next day I did it and I continued. And literally those tiny steps led to a personal revolution. I joined a gym, lost 90 pounds through proper diet and consistent exercise. Came to love working out and its impact on my mind as much or more than on my body. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Go all in on fall with Abercrombie kids. Their newest drop of on trend outfits are ready for everything from the bus stop to family bonfires. And it wouldn't be fall without football. Gear up. The kids with officially licensed NFL tees and sweatshirts Shop Abercrombie Kids this season in the app online and in store at Sierra. Discover top workout gear at incredible prices. Which might lead to another discovery.

Valerie Milburn: Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward.

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Valerie Milburn: I love your comments about exercise and how much it impacts you. It's great because you know, Dr. Peter Attia is a well known expert on healthy living. And I listened to a podcast recently that he was on and he said, talking about exercise and food, said, yes, what we eat is important, it's very important. But he said that if he had to weigh which one's more important, exercise or food? He said, exercise is the most important thing we can do for our health, mental health and physical health. He said exercise. So I thought that.

Helen Sneed: I believe that. I have come to believe that, yeah.

Valerie Milburn: For me it's exercise.

Helen Sneed: Yeah. So he's at. Well, whoever he is, he's a smart man now. Okay. I think that we have made it clear by now that grit is a strong and multifaceted component of life and of each person's life. And Valerie, you know, we began at the top by saying that it can be very contradictory, this whole concept of having and using grit and what it tells us to do. Now, this has especially been difficult for me, or I would say confusing for me as I have tried to use it in my battles for mental health. I mean, you say yes, I say no. You say come and I say go, go, go. I mean, even the Beatles have written about the difficulties in knowing when to say yes and when to say no. And the contradictory nature of grit in the quest for recovery, to me is a constant juggling act. Not always, but it can really become quite, you know, throwing those balls in the air and not knowing what to do with them can really become confusing and challenging. I mean, when is it in my best interest to say no to an activity or opportunity because it's simply asking too much? And when is the right time to push through my fears and doubts and force myself to say yes? So grit requires a delicate balance that can still challenge me to this day. And you've mentioned how those contradictions have impacted your own recovery and relationships, and I think it's different from mine. But how does it look to you?

Valerie Milburn: Well, I agree absolutely that it's a delicate balance between what I often refer to as charge or retreat and I have to weigh self care versus pushing myself to complete a task or keep a commitment to others. Charge or retreat. I see a lot of discussion, Helen, and resources about things like how to take a mental health day and what is a mental health day. I see a lot of discussion resources about those things

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Valerie Milburn: in the media and on social media, but I don't see as much on what you and I refer to as action is all sometimes forcing ourselves to complete a task or just show up for an event or a Meeting is the right thing to do because we know we'll feel better if we take action.

Helen Sneed: Well, I tell you, it became a basic principle of my recovery really is using that. It's a dialectical behavior therapy skill called opposite action. And I had to just grit my teeth and I would be at home and someone would ask me to go to the theater and I would think, I would rather stick pins in my eyes. I'm going to stay home in bed and, you know, eat M&MS. And read or whatever it was that I did, or, you know, cut, whatever these horrible, horrible habits. And I would say, no, you have to do the opposite action of what you want to do. And you know, it worked. And it was not perfect. It didn't happen, you know, like in Stair Steps up to Heaven. It was, but I, I, it worked for me. And I still have to do it sometimes when I want to, when I want to just, you know, flake out on something.

Valerie Milburn: Right? Yeah. And it's a very difficult decision to know when that's possible and when it's the right thing to do. I mean, where is that line? How do we make that decision? And I mentioned internal compass before, and I know it is that internal compass for me that, you know, that my ability to get anywhere near action is all, or to go to opposite action is a decision influenced by where I am in my recovery, by how mentally healthy I am. Much of what I see in the media describes self care as maybe a time of solitude, or maybe binging, our favorite TV show, or getting a massage, spending time in nature. And those are all excellent ideas. But this definition I saw of self care really resonated with me. And that definition is self care is any practice that allows you to be your very best in your career, relationships, social life and healthy behavior pursuits. So I'm going to repeat that because it meant so much to me. So I'm going to say it again. Self care is any practice that allows you to be your very best in your career, relationships, social life and healthy behavior pursuits. So that definition is what helped me see that accountability needs to be part of my self care. Because being accountable does indeed make me feel great, particularly if it was a hard thing to do.

Helen Sneed: Well, don't you think that sometimes. And again, I don't mean to sound real high flown about this or anything, but what I find is when I can work opposite to action, you know, that I can feel as if I'm meeting my own standard, do you know what I mean? That I, that I'm behaving in a way that I respect and it makes, it makes me feel good about myself, you know.

Valerie Milburn: Yeah, it does. And, and the part of that quote that really, that definition that really helped me is that it's hard for me to take, it's hard for me to take the self care side. I always want to take the action side. And so I needed that last line in that definition, healthy behavior pursuits, so that I don't beat myself up when I do have to say I can't do that because that's what's hard for me is to say no to other people or say no to something that's going to make me excel to everyone else. So that helped me see that sometimes that accountability is to my self care. That's the one I have a hard time with. And so I'm really good at saying, yes, I can do this, I can do that presentation, I'll be your hero, you know, and sometimes that is to the detriment of my mental health. So I read a great quote and that's just where I'm what I was talking about. The quote is, grit becomes problematic when perseverance continues past its expiration date. And I have persisted beyond my expiration dates to the detriment of my mental health. Now studies show that a tunnel visioned focus on grit can lead to unhealthy levels of stress, anxiety and perfectionism. And I was tunnel visioned, focused in many areas, including in my career. And one of my therapists did a great job of pointing out my tunnel vision. He picked up a, a notepad and he had it at arm's length how most people hold the pad when they're reading it. And he said, no, Valerie, this is how most people read a letter. Say,

00:45:00

Valerie Milburn: and he's got a, you know, a piece of paper in his hand like he's reading the letter and he goes, this is how you read. And he very quickly pulls the letter to his face, piece of paper right to his face. And I went, oh, okay. It was like, oh, he's, you know, gave me a good example. So I had to learn to let go of this tunnel vision, grit focused life, pulling the letter straight to my face. I had to learn to say no to myself and to others because, and no to perfectionism, and no to perfectionism.

Helen Sneed: It's the course to devastation, you know. Yes, you can't, you can't win with perfectionism.

Valerie Milburn: And that was part of, you know, trying to do it all right. And people like that, people like me, gritty individuals may persist too Long past that expiration date and not know when it's best to change course and go in a different direction. An example of this for me was in my fourth year of teaching when I had a reoccurrence of symptoms of my mood disorder. I mean, I was in really bad shape, but I kept going. Tunnel vision. I was sleeping less than my doctor prescribed. I was crying in between classes, eating horribly, irritable with my family. Ultimately, I wanted to drink. So I called my sponsor, and she helped me say a great big no to myself about continuing, about charging. I needed to retreat, and I told my principal I needed to go part time. She supported me. I went part time. I got better. So I couldn't do that. When I was deeply symptomatic, when I. My mental illness, I couldn't make decisions, good decisions, about whether or not I should continue forward, stick to the plan, pursue all the goals at all cost, because that's grit. And I used grit to the detriment of my choices, health and life. And, you know, I. I had an incident right before I got fired where my boss and the other people above me, because they needed a quorum, put me on a performance contract, which is the first step you need to. In order to fire somebody. So I was going to get fired, but I couldn't see it at that point. And I just signed the contract, performance contract, and went about my business. But looking back, I know I should have said when she was putting me on this performance contract, I should have said, wait a minute, I have four kinds of drugs in my purse and a bottle of tequila in my glove box and I need to go to rehab. And she probably would have supported me, but I didn't do that. I chose to charge rather than retreat. And it was that greatest of grit that I later learned to resist. But at that point, I kept going. But I crashed with the mental health crisis. I did get fired, and I found myself fighting to stay alive. Now, by one definition of grit, which you shared earlier, Helen, which was to have courageous persistence, my grit kept me alive. At one point, did my courageous persistence to stay alive become the courageous persistence to recover? I think it was when I was about to lose everything. And that was the same time that I ended up going back at work, back to work. And I think that had a lot to do with my recovery because it gave me a sense of purpose. It really gave me a sense of purpose. And I went back to work through a very gritty process. My psychiatrist had been, encouraged me to go back to work at an easy part time job. And I had found one I really wanted. I had made it through my first two rounds of interviewing and the third interview while I was back in the psychiatric hospital, I went to the interview. I went to the interview on an outpatient pass to from the psychiatric hospital and I ended up getting that job. So it took everything. Surprised I did and it took everything. I had to go to work most days while I was there. But I mean I went to work one day with bandages from self injuries under my sleeve. And many days while when I first started that job I cried in the bathroom. But I got better. And I know having that job helped me heal because like I said, it gave me a sense of purpose. So I can now see that I first learned to say no to evaluate that habit of charging ahead before I learned to say yes in a healthy way, especially to hard things.

Helen Sneed: Your relationship with grit and mind are in some ways almost polar opposites because I look at my years and they really have consisted of hide and seek between me and whatever grit I possess. And I wish I could give you a tidy story told well. But here's what happened instead. After my first long depression when I graduated from college, I finally made it to New York City in a manic burst.

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Helen Sneed: Bipolar worked for me at that time just once and you know, the city was tough and dirty and dangerous and utterly thrilling. The challenges of finding an apartment, let alone a job were almost impossible. I had no practical skills. I was going to be a great actress of the theater and other people would do the mundane and unsavory tasks for me. It was very clear. Well, after floundering for several years because no one came to do my unsavory tasks, I got a real job in the theater. And you know, I learned to work. And it was a godsend because work, like books, saved me from myself and you know, it made me grow up more than a little. So I became a driven workaholic because I didn't know how else to do it. And I was able to make a place for myself in the New York theater through a series of wonderful jobs and opportun. But sadly I never went on one audition for an acting job. And worse, I only wrote one piece with a friend over all those years. So my short term limited perseverance worked well enough for a career. But I hung up my dearest dreams like old caps in a closet. However, here we go again. I put in my 10,000 hours that Malcolm Gladwell prescribed. I knew my stuff. I really knew my stuff. When it came to new plays and musicals and I often was the first woman in a professional position. Meryl Streep once said, what does it take to be the first female anything. It takes grit and it takes grace. I love that you can't escape grit. It's everywhere, even with Meryl Streep. So finally I took on a huge opportunity with a global entertainment empire. And it should have been the pinnacle of my career. But I had become sicker inside and I had changed therapists and worked with a doctor who persuaded me to give up my new job and go into full time therapy. She told me she didn't think I'd live much longer unless I did because she thought I was going to kill myself. So, oh boy. Dumbest thing I ever did in my life. I took her advice and I walked away. It was the first time I hadn't delivered professionally and the failure was so great I almost killed myself. Instead, I began cutting and hiding it under my sleeves. So overnight I became a full time mental patient. I went straight downhill for five years. And as Duckhorst said, this is really important. She said, it isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it's suffering that you think you can't control. I mean, Valerie, don't you think this is amazing? I mean, yeah, yeah, because that's, that is the difference, you know? And for me, the loss of hope was complete and it was a living death. I had no resolve, no action, no beliefs, no goals, certainly nothing that resembled grit or even a one dream left for myself. I pursued nothing. I lived in bed and read a book a day. So what my life has taught me is that it's all about backwards and forwards for me, with grit. I can't tell you how many times I did quit, and yet there was enough grit in me somehow to try again. I wish I could have known more consistently over time, but that's not who I turned out to be. And despite the multiple illnesses and many setbacks, I, I, I, I came to, to, to, to do all right. I found a better therapist and psychiatrist. I used my DBT skills, religiously and fanatically, I might add. I began to make myself say yes. Yes to friends, invitations, and yes to parties in the theater and events. I mean, I wasn't perfect. I could still flake on people. But my friends ushered me back into the world and they refused to let me leave again. So I must have rediscovered some true grit because I made great strides toward recovery again over time, including saying yes to a job. And as you pointed out, it was hard, you know, to get back to work. It was hard for me at first because I was ashamed of how far I'd fallen in the theater world. But once I got over my ridiculous snobbery, the job provided, guess what? People and structure, a sense of purpose I hadn't felt in years. And finally, an Old Testament miracle happened. A play I'd written was produced off Broadway with real success. I'd retrieved enough of my grit and gumption. I had done the work, and I was true to my dream. And one final thing, a real shock is how much volunteer work supported and created a positive community for my recovery.

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Helen Sneed: Through writing, speaking, and teaching, I can pull beauty from the darkness after nine years. Valerie, you and I have also put in our 10,000 hours as volunteers with people with severe chronic mental illnesses not unlike ourselves. I think Malcolm Gladwell would be proud of us.

Valerie Milburn: I love that.

Helen Sneed: Yeah. So, anyway, it's hard to examine an almost lifelong struggle with five diagnoses and no hope. The lack of resolve and perseverance and dedication, the dreams hung up in a closet, the hundreds of times no was the only answer to anything that presented itself. And yet I fought on, however imperfectly, across the decades. And somehow, 10 years ago, I used grit to say yes to life. Is a life in recovery my final battle? I hope not. I'm not through yet. I'm going to try to scrounge up some more grit, like a miner panning for gold. You know, just enough nuggets to sustain my next dream. Who knows? Maybe I'll hit pay dirt.

Valerie Milburn: Well, you've hit a lot of pay dirt already, but I have no doubt that you will build another mountain with that.

Helen Sneed: Oh, I hope so, Valerie, because now we very much need for you to summon all your grit and lead us in a mindfulness exercise. Oh, please.

Valerie Milburn: I have a doozy today, right track with this topic. Our mindfulness exercise today is called self inquiry meditation. And before I begin, I will give a definition of mindfulness, because I always do. Mindfulness is a mental state achieved by focusing one's awareness on the present moment while calmly acknowledging and accepting one's feelings, thoughts, and bodily sensations without judgment. So, like I said, self inquiry meditation is today's topic, and it seems very fitting. So, self inquiry. Self inquiry allows us to look at any worries or fears or negative thoughts or futile thoughts that are limiting us and that we may have attachments to and any meaningless matters or negative habits that we might have attachments to. So how do we remove these attachments so that we can see and Think clearly and become aware of the powerful, happy, and unlimited consciousness within us. Well, we can calmly watch our thoughts as they come and go. We can be aware of our thoughts, but refrain from identifying with them or becoming immersed in them. Let's give it a try. Let's get mindful. We will begin, as always, with our diaphragmatic breathing. If you are driving or walking, please adapt this mindfulness exercise in such a way that it works in your current surroundings. If you can find a comfortable seated position, try closing your eyes. If it's safe to do so. We're going to take two diaphragmatic breaths. I usually take about 10 to start my mindfulness and meditation practice. Let's breathe. Inhale through your nose, expanding an imaginary balloon in your stomach. Hold it. Exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in as you do so. Take another Inhale through your nose. Expand that imaginary balloon in your stomach. Now exhale through your mouth, pulling your stomach in. Drop your shoulders. Pull your stomach all the way in. Continue this deep, regular breathing. As a thought enters your mind and tries to claim your attention, ask yourself, do I need to think about this? As a thought enters your mind and tries to claim your attention, ask yourself, do I need to think about this? The thoughts will keep coming. Keep asking that question, do I need to think about this? Keep taking those deep breaths and we're going to take 30 seconds. Don't analyze the thoughts or think about them. Just ask yourself that question. Do I need

01:00:00

Valerie Milburn: to think about this? I'll give you 30 seconds. It your eyes are closed, please open them and gently bring yourself back to the room. You know, it's interesting. If we continue this meditation, over time we can detach ourselves from our worries and restless thinking. We can learn to silence our minds. Now, here's one of my favorite quotes about meditation. Para Mahanson Yoga Monday said, by the practice of meditation, you can find that you are carrying within your heart a portable paradise. Thank you for doing this mindfulness exercise with me.

Helen Sneed: Oh, thank you, Valerie. What a. What wonderful words to. To leave us with.

Valerie Milburn: Before we leave, I'd like to remind you, our listeners, to vote for us in the Signal Awards Listeners Choice category. As you might have determined from this conversation about grit, Helen and I like to succeed and win. Well, we need your vote. So please vote for Mental Health, Hope and recovery@vote.signalaward.com or at the link in today's show notes. And you know what? You got to do it fast. The deadline is October 5th, so vote by October 5th at vote.signalaward.com or at today's Show Notes thank you for your support. Now, Helen, will you please wrap it up for us?

Helen Sneed: We've told some good stories today about grit and determination. As Sprite Lorraine said, every great story happened when someone decided not to give up. I just love that concept. I just love it. Now for our next episode, we have a terrific opportunity ahead of us to which we said yes. We've been asked to present our podcast at the NAMI Texas State Conference in Houston, and the subject is creativity and recovery, a challenging, dynamic subject that affects us all. We'll examine the phenomenal impact creativity has on mental health and vice versa. And we're going to have live audience participation. Our first interactive podcast. Now, this will be an episode you obviously don't want to miss. So until then, I leave you with our favorite word.